29 thoughts on “immigration, good or bad for our economy?

  1. Do the Right Thing

    I would have much preferred having someone with Dr. Fuller’s background, education and expertise advising our County than the head of FAIR. It just makes good common sense.

  2. Kenneth Reynolds

    Given Stewart’s expressions of relative indifference, I wonder if FAIR is still guiding the county’s actions……..Gospel Greg and Stewart seem to be following a script!!!

  3. USMCWife

    Right, and we should listen to him because his academic prognostications have always been right on the money, no?

    Hmmm…what about his predictions that NOVA RE would continue to escalate? He didn’t predict the housing boom would also “bust” like many non-PhD realists did. Anybody in the market in 2004 could see where it was headed, but noooo, not the esteemed Dr. Fuller, who you now want to take advice from?

    I’m laughing so hard my sides hurt.

  4. hello

    Legal immigrantion is great for the economy, illegal immigration is bad for the economy. When you allow the illegaly immigrant population to grow into large numbers in one community the surrounding economy becomes dependant upon them. One example would be with construction, when one company uses an illegal work force he can under cut other companies. Then the other companies (one-by-one) will have to use illegal labor just to compete in the market. Before you know everyone is using illegal labor and then the pay for labor is lowered to such an extent that it’s become hard for legal resident labor to make a living.

  5. For a great exposition on the importance of introducing diversity for stimulating creativity and advancement, read The Medici Effect by Frans Johannsen. The greatest innovations of our time often take place at the intersection of differing ideas. If everyone is on the same path, you don’t have those intersections.

  6. hello, The unemployment rate in our area has traditionally been below the national and regional average. Currently, it’s around 3.2%. In economics, an unemployment rate under 4% is considered “full employment.” Generally, with full employment, there are more jobs available than there are people to fill them. So while most of what you’ve written is true (and the reason that those so interested in the “rule of law” really ought to be looking at those who employ illegal labor), the last sentence doesn’t necessarily follow. In PWC, the market for labor has not diminished to such an extent that it’s become hard for legal resident labor to make a living.

  7. illegals are scum. scum of the earth, more foul than anything because they basically take our flag and trample on it. they care nothing about the country, only about collecting an illegal paycheck and sending it to their home country. 25 billion to mexico last year from the U.S. from migrants! that’s why mexico doesnt want to do anything about it, it’s a cash cow.

    you all are un-american as you support illegal activity and reconquista crap from the illegals. this blog is just a front for mexicans without borders.

  8. Turn PW Blue said:

    For a great exposition on the importance of introducing diversity for stimulating creativity and advancement, read The Medici Effect by Frans Johannsen. The greatest innovations of our time often take place at the intersection of differing ideas. If everyone is on the same path, you don’t have those intersections.

    I think this is a dangerous illusion. Diversity presents challenges. We should be honest with ourselves. I think we can become a better and stronger country by overcoming those challenges, but in order to do that we must first recognize that there are challenges. For example, look at what diversity produced in the form of the resolution. Anyone who thinks only white people can be racist is mistaken. I’ve experienced bigotry from pretty much all ethnic groups. As our country becomes more and more multiracial, this problem will grow more acute unless we have a philosophy to unify us that transcends the ugly, deterministic, collectivist, group mentality called race.

  9. Elena

    Mackie,
    Interesting response to turn pw blue. I was driving home from picking up my son, and I realized what an overwhelming weight I feel like I am under. So many issues, deep core of our being issues that must be addressed. Yet, there is a part of me that wants to cry out, “can’t we all just get along”. But that would be unrealistic and immature. The question is, how DO we figure this out, do we even try, or instead maybe we just shuffle along, trying to put out the most egregious of fires.

  10. Mackie:

    I’d suggest that you read the book (which is more about the creative process and how introducing unlikely elements through diverse thinking leads to innovation and invention than it is a social commentary on racial or ethnic diversity).

    Diversity does, indeed, present challenges. But, human history is filled with greatness coming from facing and embracing those challenges. It is not diversity, however, that has created the situation we face in PWC. It’s the fact that so many are afraid to embrace diversity and difference of ideas as a strength. Diversity doesn’t deal only with different races. It is embracing the diversity of thought and opinion. Race is only a superficial aspect of that.

  11. Elena

    Turn PW Blue,
    Sounds like I need to place an order on Amazon.com, thanks for the suggestion.

  12. hello

    Turn PW Blue, I do agree that we have a low unemployment rate here but there is nothing to say that it can’t be lower. I use to rent a condo in PWC to someone in the HUD program and on welfare. This person openly told me that it was more economic for them to stay on welfare because the jobs they were qualified for didn’t pay enough to make a living. This person was only qualified for labor type jobs where the pay was driven down by illegal labor. By removing illegal labor the pay is driven up and people like my ex-renter could get off of welfare and work. I completely agree that those who employ illegal labor need to looked at (fined and jail time) but at the same moment you can’t just ignore those here illegally.

  13. Actually, hello, it is impossible to have 0% unemployment (otherwise we’d never have job mobility or job growth). So, it is pretty hard to go much lower than 2-3%.

    Let’s finish the economic consequences of your example though…

    Wages go up. Small businesses decide that instead of hiring another employee, they’ll just suck it up and work a few extra hours and ask a couple other employees to do a little extra because it’s now too expensive to add another position. Isn’t this the argument conservatives always make when a change in the minimum wage is proposed? Wouldn’t that hold true here as well?

    Contrary to the rhetoric, most who are here illegally are here because of the work they can get. Take the work away, and the demand for illegal labor disappears. When the demand disappears, the incentive to give up everything you have, travel thousands of miles under harsh and dangerous conditions, cross illegally into the United States, just so you can clean toilets at a hotel or work on roofs in the hot sun goes away as well.

    It is much easier to cut off the flow by removing the demand than it is to try to dry up the supply to make the demand go away. But that would mean going after a group that by and large looks, acts, and talks just like us. That means going after a group with power, money, and influence. Wouldn’t it just be easier to keep focusing on the easier (though less effective) target?

  14. hello said:

    This person openly told me that it was more economic for them to stay on welfare because the jobs they were qualified for didn’t pay enough to make a living. This person was only qualified for labor type jobs where the pay was driven down by illegal labor. By removing illegal labor the pay is driven up and people like my ex-renter could get off of welfare and work.

    It may be true that illegal labor drives down some wages, but that is also a good argument for giving amnesty. Once they have rights, the new citizens can lobby for better pay, workers comp., etc. They are in an ‘illegal’ status because that’s where our govt, in collusion with business, wants them to be. Going after illegals hurts our economy unnecessarily, going after employers does the same. Lets give them a path to citizenship so they can fight for higher wages.

  15. Cindy B

    I like the solutions Kevin Raymond proposed in his letter to the editor of the MJM today:

    — work with families to get them documented where possible
    –have a system for making sure drivers are familiar with the rules of the road, especially the need for insurance
    –enforce neighborhood ordinances instead of federal statues
    — get federally supported community development corporations in marginal areas

  16. Kenneth Reynolds

    hello said on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:05 pm:
    Legal immigrantion is great for the economy, illegal immigration is bad for the economy. When you allow the illegaly immigrant population to grow into large numbers in one community the surrounding economy becomes dependant upon them. One example would be with construction, when one company uses an illegal work force he can under cut other companies. Then the other companies (one-by-one) will have to use illegal labor just to compete in the market. Before you know everyone is using illegal labor and then the pay for labor is lowered to such an extent that it’s become hard for legal resident labor to make a living.

    Kenneth said – Duhhhhhhh…..when the economy was booming, who do you think was doing the work? And when the economy is down, who is getting screwed……..duhhhhhhhh

  17. Kenneth Reynolds

    Cindy B said on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:15 pm:
    I like the solutions Kevin Raymond proposed in his letter to the editor of the MJM today:
    – work with families to get them documented where possible
    –have a system for making sure drivers are familiar with the rules of the road, especially the need for insurance
    –enforce neighborhood ordinances instead of federal statues
    – get federally supported community development corporations in marginal areas

    Kenneth said – And thank you for all the good common sense you bring to the table Cindy!! God knows how much we need to stand up for what is right!!!

  18. Luckyduck

    Cindy B, what do we do with the families who have status that CANNOT be changed or adjusted? If you entered the Country illegally since the mid 80’s, it is virtually impossible to adjust your status without leaving the US and applying to return. Would you do that?

    We currently have a system for making sure drivers are familiar with the rules of the road and the need for insurance – its called DMV and its enforced by local police. 16 year old natives learn this so lets give some credit to adult immigrants for some common sense and self responsibility that they may need a license to drive. If you’ve ever traveled abroad and drove, didn’t YOU ask this question?

    I am fine with enforcing neighborhood ordinances instead of federal laws but our BOCS just refused to fund 3 extra investigators for Public Works.

  19. Kenneth Reynolds

    viva_las_vegas!! said on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:34 pm:
    illegals are scum. scum of the earth, more foul than anything because they basically take our flag and trample on it. they care nothing about the country, only about collecting an illegal paycheck and sending it to their home country. 25 billion to mexico last year from the U.S. from migrants! that’s why mexico doesnt want to do anything about it, it’s a cash cow.
    you all are un-american as you support illegal activity and reconquista crap from the illegals. this blog is just a front for mexicans without borders.

    Kenneth said – I wouldnt waste my typing finger on this guy……people who use this kind of language are usually those who really are those names……and if viva wasnt also a child of God, i would call him the same names…but Christians know we arent supposed to use such language on others………i wonder how much money the $25 billion generated in teerms of economic power left here……they build things in earning that money and also spend a lot here aalso. My only ‘solution’ for the immigration problem is to build the economies of the places from which they immigrate…..this will never happen in our time……but it is better to work for that than to think we can deport 12 million consumers….or build a ridiculous fence! The root cause of immigration are economics and dictatorial abuses……until these are fixed, there will be immigration. So, FAIR, Letiecq and Stewart et al can at least try to make their lives miserable while we pay for it…Hummmmm maybe we should rise up and …………

  20. Kenneth Reynolds

    Mackie said on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:05 pm:
    hello said:
    This person openly told me that it was more economic for them to stay on welfare because the jobs they were qualified for didn’t pay enough to make a living. This person was only qualified for labor type jobs where the pay was driven down by illegal labor. By removing illegal labor the pay is driven up and people like my ex-renter could get off of welfare and work.
    It may be true that illegal labor drives down some wages, but that is also a good argument for giving amnesty. Once they have rights, the new citizens can lobby for better pay, workers comp., etc. They are in an ‘illegal’ status because that’s where our govt, in collusion with business, wants them to be. Going after illegals hurts our economy unnecessarily, going after employers does the same. Lets give them a path to citizenship so they can fight for higher wages.

    Kenneth said – YOU AND YOUR IGNORANCE IS ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE PROBLEMS….. “THEY” are not on welfare……people have all these pre-conceived ideas that they use in the ballot box etc…….did you know the idiotic results of this so-called rule of law resolution!! its a friggin joke..sad one……but have someone read to you the ‘services’ that are denied….and then have them count the number of arrests of undocumenetd people….and if the arrests werent initially done because of another crime, then you MACKIE might end up paying te bill for the damages that PWC paypayers will get hit with from a racial profiling lawsuit………tell me i am wrong on any of these points……..but make sure you know what the hell you are talking about!!!

  21. Kenneth Reynolds

    Mackie, a thousand pardons…….i am so sorry for the above remarks……you are a GENIUS in your solutions…….i was addressing my comments to “hello’ who you were talking about…”Hello” doesnt know what he is talking about, and regretably, i did not read the comment and said what i said….SORRY

  22. Kenneth Reynolds

    Luckyduck said on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:02 pm:
    Cindy B, what do we do with the families who have status that CANNOT be changed or adjusted? If you entered the Country illegally since the mid 80’s, it is virtually impossible to adjust your status without leaving the US and applying to return. Would you do that?
    We currently have a system for making sure drivers are familiar with the rules of the road and the need for insurance – its called DMV and its enforced by local police. 16 year old natives learn this so lets give some credit to adult immigrants for some common sense and self responsibility that they may need a license to drive. If you’ve ever traveled abroad and drove, didn’t YOU ask this question?
    I am fine with enforcing neighborhood ordinances instead of federal laws but our BOCS just refused to fund 3 extra investigators for Public Works.

    Kenneth said – Luckyduck…..you have identified a big part of the problem..it is the BOCS who have the power to enforce local ordinances such as beefing up Public Works….instead….i think it is becoming clear—the BOCS is a mouthpiece for FAIR. And if people dont have a chance of obtaining citizen status, i wish we could develop a system…tied to some legal way to allow them to work or whatever they are doing…..instead they have to hide…….live in fear…….and we have the crackpots of the world like letiecq and stewart running around trying to catch them…Yes, we do have DMV laws, and in fact these are mainly state laws……..but this is an area that would be helpful to us all to work for solutions…….i am afraid these are a lot more doable than the wretched wasteland of immigration laws at the federal level and ludicrous resolutions at the state level……..

  23. Do the Right Thing

    Mackie Said:

    It may be true that illegal labor drives down some wages, but that is also a good argument for giving amnesty. Once they have rights, the new citizens can lobby for better pay, workers comp., etc. They are in an ‘illegal’ status because that’s where our govt, in collusion with business, wants them to be. Going after illegals hurts our economy unnecessarily, going after employers does the same. Lets give them a path to citizenship so they can fight for higher wages.

    Mackie, ICAM, but this crazy faction will not hear of it. It can’t see a blanket amnesty getting passed in this climate, but for the life of me, I fail to see why people will not accept the payment of a fine in exchange for a path to legality if the person can show they have been an otherwise law abiding person AND have a job AND have been paying taxes! Why is that considered to be so radical by some right wingers?

  24. Luckyduck

    Do the Right thing, I put part of what bothers others about a fine and having a job is that there are hundreds of thousands of people in lands that do not share a common land border that have not snuck into the country for any reason and do not get that same opportunity or reward for violating a civil law of the United States – for whatever reason. That does trouble so many people. All those people waiting to do immigration the legal, correct way do not get that same chance.

  25. Do the Right Thing

    LD,

    But SOMETHING has to give, don’t you agree? It just does not make sense to get rid of 12 M valuable employees only to replace them with people who have been “waiting their turn”. It is simply not possible to deport that many people from an economic standpoint. And if they have a job and can show they have otherwise been contributing to society something has to be forgiven. They can be punished for breaking the law by paying a fine. It is fair, it is logical and doable. Yes, people have been waiting a long time, but if we can get the people that are here now legalized, then we can open the door to more visas to actually meet the demand that we have. Right now, the door has been slammed for years, but we still needed the people to do the work. So a guy makes it up here and tells his brothers that his employer needs more people and they will make $10 an hour here rather than the $2/day they are making now. No one was enforcing the laws for many years, so people took the gamble and came here.

  26. WhyHereWhyNow

    I have a problem with him saying he only associates with Americans. I gave me images of him holing up with white people only in an area where it’s 83 percent minority. He puts up with this because of higher taxes… okay.

    And, I couldn’t stomach listening a second time, but can someone explain what Virginia’s Native Americans did to break the rules?

  27. Elena

    Well, I think it must be they came off their reservation!

    Lucky Duck,
    I don’t disagree with your concern. I think that our entire immigration system is broken. I am not an expert, but there has to be a way to deal with this dilema. I would love for the county to sponsor an immigration panel. Not with people like FAIR, but well respected professors and professionals.

  28. Michael

    Mackie at 3:45

    That my friend is the smartest thing I’ve heard anyone say on this blog yet! Yes diversity is dangerous! so is multiculturalism, multi-language support and a host of other fracturing political and social ideologies inn the minds of our social engineers.

    The world has so much diversityt in it and as a result is in in conflict, at war, in political battles and with multi-cultural seperatism and self-segregation leading the way toward hateful cultural wars.

    The only solution is to merge and blend cultures, merge and blend languages, merge and blend religions, and merge and blend gender differences (those than physically can be) into a collective, trusting and harmonious culture. Promoting Diversty is the opposite of this, and this is why it is failing. THe current form of it is just a ploy by manority groups to get around the fact that the Supreme Court rulings that guarantee equal opportunity, not deny equal outcomes based on numbers balancing and racial balancing schemes, does not give them an advantage over other racial and ethic groups.

    Mackie, you are the first person on this blog I think that finally understands and gets it. Cultural seperation and group advocacy is destructive and wrong. It is the core of racism and racial problems. Only cultural blending and equal law enforcement works. Segregating is a crime, separatist thinking is a crime, group rights are not legal and only individuals have “civil rights”, and the right to have all laws enforced upon all “equally” and without bias or PREFERENCE based on gender, race, religion and ethnic group.

  29. admin

    thanks for stopping in.

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