As far as I’m concerned, this one is a no-brainer. The next President regardless of whether it’s a Republican or a Democrat, will, at a minimum, need to address these minor children who consider themselves Americans. This will be the third, and I believe succesfull attempt at legislating the “Dream Act.” It is my desire that there will be Comprehensive Immigration Reform and not just a ‘quick fix’ attempt to resolve our immigration problems.

77 thoughts on “Dreams Deferred

  1. Not Me, Bubba

    Duhhhh….meant to say “READ anything else I have posted”

  2. Red Dawn

    Elena,
    THAT was a good video.

  3. Mando

    @ Not Me, Bubba

    My appologies but it wasn’t directed entirely at you.

    On the armed border part, the border is getting increasingly dangerous for border patrol and they’re pretty much out-gunned by the drug runners and coyotes. The militarization of these drug runners and coyotes smacks alot of Mexican govt. backing. The US militarizing our side of the border in light of this doesn’t seem so out of place.

    @ Mackie

    They come here not as traders, but as black market labor – which is illegal.

  4. elvis

    I hear (see) what alot of you are saying, all good things. I think what has been discussed before with our government is sending all of them back and having them immigrate the proper way (I think the time-line given was 6-10 years, correct me if I’m wrong) but give a guaranteed roadmap to immigration. I dont have a problem with this at all. OR even ensuring all of them register and after completing the requisite language training, citizenship training, whatever then they be allowed to carry a green card/visa. They have to prove they want to be here if they want to be citizens and that means assimilation or at least attempt to assimilate. There’s a middle road somewhere in this mess that fits at least some of what most people want. Everyone is not going to be happy but that’s life. The assimilation issue is what turns many people against the plight of the illegal alien. I mean it’s really hard to feel sorry for them sometimes when you hear stories about some of them being here for 20 plus years and not being able to speak a lick of english. Doesnt really show a desire to be an american to many. But, seeing illegal aliens attempt school, complete college, get degree’s and such…THATS assimilation and should be rewarded. it’s the “bad” apples in the basket that make everyone else look bad. Clear them up by assisting them to assimilate by giving them a little “push” and everything looks more pleasant to a wider range of people and that opens more doors up.

  5. Elena

    TWINAD, 6. May 2008, 16:24

    That is a reasonable summation of what needs to happen, even Elvis sees the validity in it!

  6. elvis

    Again, I’ll restate it’s all a matter of streamlining the process. The process now is messed up for sure. make it right and sharp to where the standards are tight and you have something that people can agree with, if not be happy with. I’ve found that people in general respect standards that are followed regardless of whether they actually agree with them. If the public sees a particular standard followed with efficiency then you have something good happening because then you’ll see heads nodding. Otherwise you have mass confusion and that’s where people start getting upset because they see one group or another taking advantage of the system. People like to see fairness. fairness is easy to understand and it makes most sleep better at night.

  7. Rick Bentley

    Why assimilate? Our business community is falling all over themselves to market to the “Spanish-speaking” community in America. You can shop in Spanish groceries, watch Dish Latino every night … become part of the new and exciting permanent American underclass.

  8. Elena

    Rick,
    There are plenty of communities that cater to the tastes of immigrants……china town, little italy, Indian, Korean etc etc etc. There is a churche, in fact, one in Gainesville, and it has Korean on the sign. Are you offended by that too? Becoming a part of the American culuture does NOT mean you abdicate your heritage. Now, having said that, I absolutely believe that immigrants should learn some English, but don’t forget, that is no easy task for adults to learn another language fluently. I do not speak any other language fluently but English.

  9. Not Me, Bubba

    Making immigrants learn English will be nearly impossible to do – not because they will not learn, but because the USA has NO “official” language. There is no part of our constitution, bill of rights or other founding documents that cite a uniform national language. Same goes for religion…

    So unless TPTB mandate tomorrow or in the near future that English become our national language, mandating English lessons is futile. The US has no national language, so all languages are acceptable.

  10. admin

    Do we have second generation immigrants unable to speak English? No. In fact, the second generation is losing the language of their parents just as past generations have done. It’s no different.

    I will agree whole-heartedly that I don’t like when stores hang signs in Spanish especially with no English equivalent. Recently, I went into Sprint and they only had the plan brochure in Spanish, when I inquired, I was told they had run out of the English version. So, I completely understand the frustration but I don’t believe the blame for this falls on the ‘illegals.’

  11. elvis

    there are language immersion programs, it’s not easy to learn another language especially adults. Children have a far easier time becoming bilingual. I’ve attended language immersion for two other languages and it was a pretty tough experience. The asian languages seem to be the hardest, with english right up there as well. If I’m not mistaken I think to obtain citizenship you have to speak english at some level of proficiency.

  12. Rick Bentley

    But importing millions of people who speak a different language at the same time takes us towards bilingualism. And there seems to be littlem incentive for new arrivals to speak English.

    It’s easy to say the kids will grow up speaking English – and that’s true. And some of those kids will succeed in life. Many though, will fail. The difficulties we see in moving an underclass of people out of poverty should be obvious from recent American hostory. How we can claim we want to reduce poverty while simultaneously swelling an uneducated underclass … it’s entirely contradictory. Importing so many poor and uneducated may not sentence each and every one of their children to poverty, but it will almost certainly swell our underclass, increase poverty in America, and move us further towards a caste system of haves and have-nots.

    It’s basically the opposite of what many of us used to think America should be and what we thought it was.

  13. Censored bybvbl

    A story… a friend’s daughter ended up with an assignment in China and didn’t speak any Chinese. She learned a smattering. One day she was walking down the street and was dying to have a free-flowing conversation in English instead of feeling stymied by her poor Chinese language skills. She spotted two European looking guys and walked up to them and said,”I’ll give you one thousand dollars to speak English to me for thirty minutes”. One was Dutch and the other German but they both spoke English. They didn’t take her up on her monetary offer but she did marry one of them a year later.

  14. Elena

    Great story Censored 🙂

  15. Michael

    Twinad, I know first hand most “illegals” are not paying state taxes, nor federal taxes. My wife was an illegal alien, she and ALL of her friends were illegal, except for 2. None of their employers paid federal or state tax witholding (a pre-requisite to filing a tax return), none of them had W-2s, all had over-stayed visas (I-90s), all had access to unscrululus lawyers that put in false paperwork for them to be able to have some form of ID, a few had drivvers license, I know some who even voted illegally, all had unscrupulous employers who paid cash out of the drawer, and counted only credit cards as “income”.

    I don’t need you or anyone else to tell me this was false, I saw it from the inside, and a whole lot more (like rape of innocent illegals, from people who knew they were illegal, with threats to turn them in if they did not. The police when reported, did nothing to stop any of this, and I did report it, and to ICE. They also did nothing to these illegally run businesses.

    Maybe you see something different in your spouse’s experiences, than I saw in mine and all of her some 30 “illegal” friends and some 50 “illegal” associates. My spouses associates, before they finally became legal through sham marriages (not my wife that was legitimate) all traded on an illegal black market, sharing illegal financial accounts, ssns, credit cards and phone plans as “family” when they were not.

    I know more about the reality and damage illegal immigration causes that almost any of you on this blog, by directly seeing it in its internal social network and covert support system.

    This is why I insist on the law being enforced, and for only “legal” people to be allowed to remain in this country at all cost, including deporting 12-14 million people who have not obeyed the law and caused others in the legal line to wait even longer. I saw first hand what it does to the legal poor, and to the society I live in.

  16. Michael

    To attend any state supported school as a foreigner you have to request and receive a student VISA. These kids simply have to request a foreigh student VISA and they can attend any school they apply for under that visa. They are foreign students, not permamant residents or citizens, unless they are born here or go through the same process everyone else does to request and receive a permanent resident card. I have no sympathy for parents who break the law and put their kids in these positions. I don’t blame the kids, I blame the parents.

  17. Michael

    My cut on the language issue. I am not against anyone speaking multiple languages (surprised?), but I am highly against not using a common business language (English) as the culturally “INTEGRATING” language that it is ALL OVER THE WORLD.

    I am not against anyone learning multiple languages, enjoying multiple cultures, and actually enjoy the recreational and artistic benefits of having many cultures. What I am highly against is dis-integration, cultural separatism, and culturally seperating forces that create politically devisive factions along racial, gender, religious and ethnic lines. These force are forces that encourage people to remain loyal only to thier culture, to prefer to speak their native language, instead of a community language, and who promote racial self-segregation as a culture only they think is superior to all others. That is racism of the worst kind of the 60s throwback.

    I am extremely against the destructive political nature of these groups of people who align political advocacy and political power, votes and ethics along racial, gender, religious and ethnic group cultural boundaries. Intentional speaking of multi-languages as a government requirement, and business solution is socially and nationally destructive politically as it creates even more division, hatred, and lack of trust and communication between conflicting political factions aligned along cultural boundaries. That is the road to destruction of a nation, and I think none of you understand this. I have seen it first hand in warring factions, in other “racially motivated”, culturally and linguistically segregated populations of the world.

  18. Michael

    You ae missing the point, Permanant resident students and American citizens are just as concerned and will work just as hard as any “illegal alien” student to compete to get into college. The issue is simply “cost”. If you are not a permanent resident or a citizen that has declared state residency, pay state tax (not gas bills), and competes based on grades, IQ and ability and can get loans scholarships and state funds for school (my kids do), then no “illegal alien” deserves any more special privilege under the law than any other foreign student, or any student competing with my US citizen or your permanant resident kids (those of you that have them). Foreigners can go to any school they want, They just like out-of state students have to pay more for the privilege. Again I have no sympathy, because I want my kids to compete on a legal playing field that is “neutral” according to law, not biased because some people feel sorry only for “illegal alien” kids and not my kids. My kids deserve your sympathy too, unless you just don’t like their “culture” or race or ethnic group. Then the problem is with you. My issue is only with the “illegal” kids taking college opportunities away from my “legal” kids. You can’t convince me ‘illegals” deserve more than “legals”, no matter who you try to spin it.

  19. TWINAD

    Michael,

    All I can speak from is experience, too, and I don’t know ANY illegals who are getting paid under the table. They ALL get paychecks and pay all requisite taxes. Obviously, you did run in a shadier group it seems if you saw all that and did participate in a sham marriage. I am NOT in a sham marriage and it angers me that in the past people did take advantage of that loophole and now it is closed…even to people with real marriages, love and family. I seem to remember that your wife was from the Phillipines? Perhaps they had a more sophisticated ring of people to assist them with their dirty deeds. All I’m saying is that you should not come on here and paint all illegals as non taxpayers…the vast majority DO get a paycheck and pay all the requisite taxes. Just look at all the people caught up in raids…they were all getting checks from their employers.

  20. TWINAD

    Michael,

    I just re-ready your post and I think I see that your marriage was NOT a sham? Not clear on that, but if I got it wrong in the above post, I’m sorry. I still think that you are using a “wide paint roller” (got that from Censored!) in painting all illegal aliens as non taxpayers, because it is simply not true from all the people I know and from the amount of money collected by SS from illegal aliens.

  21. elvis

    I’m seeing alot of generalization here. I’ve seen “illegal aliens work and pay taxes” which says to me “ALL” illegal aliens and I’ve seen “illegal aliens work under the table” which means “ALL” illegal aliens work under the table. Both generalizations are not correct or true.

    These are generalizations and they are not rational. We know that many illegal aliens work with ITIN’s and pay taxes (and dont collect refunds) however we also know many that work under the table, you just have to drive by a 7-11 to see that. the problem with discussing anything about illegal immigration is when people generalize and insert emotion into the argument. I cannot stand the day-workers hanging out on corners, urinating in public and the well known illegals down the street parking in the middle of the road so traffic cannot safely navigate by. Those are individual circumstances that do not apply to ALL illegal aliens, as mentioned before I had a relatively quiet neighbor for sometime that many had good suspicions was illegal. He was quiet as a mouse and neighborly for the most part and I’m sure he had a regular job and that he paid taxes. for as many examples of the good, you can find plenty examples of the bad.

    The system is broke, it needs to be fixed. Giving one way (total amnesty) and the other (locking them all up and shipping them back) is not the answer. The truth lie somewhere in between. I’m all for documenting these people, sending them back and making them earn their way back albeit expeditiously and correctly. I’m not for Obama or Hillary but I think they have some good ideas and if they work as advertised then they sound reasonable. Then again Mcain has portions of his plans that are good as well, as did Romney and others. Would it not be nice if everyone one of them pooled together and disregarded special interests and emotions to work out a solid plan?

  22. Elena

    elvis, 8. May 2008, 8:03

    work together? What an odd and strange idea 🙂 I agree Elvis, a consensus need to be reached.

  23. elvis

    Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins” (2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4)

    basically, children should not have to suffer for the misdeeds of their parents. if they are legal citizens then they should not be hamstrung by the misdeeds of their parents in obtaining education. what’s done is done, the 14th amendment’s interpretation (which is being debated by far greater legal minds than are on this board) at this time says those people are citizens. So for now, according to law, this people are in fact citizens and should be afforded the rights thereof with no strings attached.

  24. Michael

    You are correct elvis, not all illegals pay state and federal taxes. By my understanding (some of you can research more accurately), some $12Billion dollars over the past 10 years is under false social security accounts, therefore meaning a social security number (yours) was stolen by an illegal, your identity stolen and by some screwed up “liberal judge ruling” are not allowed to know about this theft of your social security number. That’s $1.2 billion dollars paid by illegals per year, or at an average income of $10,000-$20,000 per year and taxes paid of $1000-2000/year only about 600,000 of the 12-14 MILLION illegal aliens in country are paying taxes. This additional 13.5 million who are not paying any federal or state tax AT ALL are taking in money under the table, and will cause the Medicare accounts to go bankrupt by the year 2017 (nine years from now), and the social security accounts to go bankrupt by 2041. ( This measly little 12Billion dollars they have paid (not by choice) is a drop in the bucket compared to the national debt of $9TRILLION dollars. So Big Deal that 1 out of 20 illegals are paying taxes. If we remove them from the country, an additional 14Million people get paid more medicare and social security welfare checks.

    elvis, the 14th admendment does not grant citizenship to foreign borne children (except military, or if one spouse is legal) of illegal parents, only US borne children of illegal parents. US borne children is not what the dream act is trying to give free benefits to, it is trying to make illegal children legal with the srtoke of a pin ahead of all other people lined up for permanent resident cards or student visas. This is highly unethical. These kids simply need to apply for permanent residency status like everyone else. Then they can go to get “in-State” tuition rates.

  25. Michael

    The reason the nation is going to go bankrupt early is the liberal side of the government wants us to pay more social programs so we can be a socialist economy (and thus poor) instead of invest in techical innovation programs so we can be a market economy and thus richer than poorer. The taxes are being increased by the liberal side of the government to pay for more social and handout programs, significantly to the 12-14 million “illegal” poor compared to the some 30 million “legal poor”. The rest of us 320 million “majority” the liberal side of the government does not seem to care about and in fact “hates” as the “status quo”.
    We will tax ourselves into poverty, and grow ourselves “out of control” into poverty, all the while thinking the government is a bottomless socialist money pit and we can tax ourselves into prosperity. Stupid is as stupid does.

  26. Rick Bentley

    It’s not some American kid’s fault that their parents moved state-to-state and didn’t establish residency either … possibly to find work after losing a job to an illegal alien or having a whole industry collapse … no crocodile tears for them though … in any case the kid can go to college, it’s just a different and slightly longer process. These are the rules in place and I don’t want them changed just to reward illegal behavior.

    Again I say, in some countries and cultures people get beaten with pipes for sneaking in and undermining wages, here in America if we do anything other than roll out the red carpet some people get so upset. Take your notion of Christian Charity and apply it to charitable efforts, don’t try to force it down every American’s throat. Our government does not exist for your philanthropical efforts.

  27. elvis

    I’m pretty fluent in the 14th amendment as I’m an attorney, however i was under the impression the dream act allowed students students that we in state to basically get away from the “sins of the father” type stuff. it doesnt say that if an child of an illegal decided to move to another state and get in state tuition, I dont think that’s the case. that said I looked into it, it doesnt apply to U.S. born but illegals who can prove they entered before 15 years of age, and they have to be high performing students, the cream of the crop. I dont have issue with that. A 15 year old doesnt really have a say so on where they go. and the dream act says nothing about in state tuition. that’s a state thing. in fact, tacking an in-state tuition clause on to that bill would be a sure way to kill it. I doubt many american citizens would stand for illegal aliens getting in-state tuition when others dont. the dream act is essentially a citizenship path for high performing illegal alien students who entered the U.S. before the age of 15 and are not criminals. If I’m leaving anything out let me know, I have the bill in front me.

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