A Place for Civil Debate: A Blog for Grown Ups
“I like to discount the extremists on both sides of this issue.” Actually, we shouldn’t entirely discount extremists because unfortunately, those are the folks we are working with so we can get to a better middle ground.
As for Bustamante, he’s hardly an outsider if he works for the UN, of which the U.S. is a member. Bustamante is part of global government.
F.A.I.R. is NOT, thank GOD. But they’d like to be, and they have managed to intrude via their policy pushed through in this county.
Well, I disagree about Bustamante – I consider him to be an extremist. And it goes back to what LuckyDuck said – I’m also tired of others from outside PWC trying to dictate what we should and should not do, and even analyze us, etc.
Well, when we opted to be F.A.I.R.’s rat experiment, we opened ourselves up for observation and analysis.
Hi Elena, the PWC Human Rights Commission is a local entity of appointed representatives and I am fine with their review and panel discussion because they are here, represent us and we have open access to them via our BOCS member or direct contact with them. That, is local democracy. Not some outside entity who rode into McCoart from her home outside of Prince William or from his college post at Notre Dame to offer their views on how best to run our County and then leave. Why has Ms. Chavez not visited Herndon? Or Loudoun County? Why hasn’t the Civil Rights Commission in Maryland gone to Frederick County? Each of these jurisdictions has implemented some degree of immigration policy but we are the one selected for their stage.
I agree with both you and kgotthardt, that we did not know FAIR was behind the resolution and we all (as you two have stated above) resented their involvement. Well, if it was wrong for FAIR to interfer, I feel it is just as wrong for these other, outside entities to be involved. We did it to ourselves and we as a County have fought back to fix it. Let us do it, its our democracy to fix or screw up…but it is ours. We didn’t break any laws with our policy (no lawsuits, no court overturning the resolution) but we certainly didn’t do the right thing and we are trying to address it. If we are not successsful, then we vote out those who won’t listen to us – local democracy.
Elena, is being an enigma to you a good thing or a bad thing?
Elena, I imagine that you are an intelligent person who values independent thought. I would just like to remind you that there is independent thought on both sides of the issue.
I did consciously make the argument that the word “invasion” has been demonized. Of course it generally has a negative connotation, as in this instance, but that’s not always so. (the British Invasion for example) To say that someone who feels their country is being invaded is using coded hate speech, I just don’t accept that. There are plenty of wonderful people out there that feel that way. They are not hateful people for the use of that word. That is my point.
I cannot compare “mass murder” to invasion. Negative connotation doesn’t even begin to describe it. Using “mass murder” and “suicide bomber” in comparison to invasion is not a valid comparison. Do you really think that I could see “suicide bomber” & “mass murder” as unfair manipulation? If you do, you have truly dehumanized me. I don’t do horror flicks because I don’t like seeing those horrible things happen. Do you really think I would defend the reputation of the words “chainsaw massacre”?
Because I think that it is an effective ploy does not mean that I am a conspiracy theorist. I have no doubt that advocacy groups for any issue use strategies. That doesn’t mean I have to be mindless and blindly believe everything they say like a 3 year old watching a commercial.
One thought real quick Lucky Duck, Linda Chavez represented the Virginia Human Rights Commission. Last time I looked, we were still a part of VA 😉
I really don’t mind Bustamante coming to PWC at all. I in no way agree with his comments but I actually think that it’s great that he is coming here so that he can finally show everyone that there are no human rights being violated here in PWC.
The only thing that I don’t like is the fact that he is coming here by the request of MWB. Hopefully, when he finds no evidence of human rights being violated, the fact the MWB invited him won’t discredit his findings.
Virginia is not a border state.
We do need to realize a basic idea here: “open borders” is a concept that has very little to do with the general order given by Police Chief Deane to Prince William County Police Officers. The question is whether local police should or should not be involved in enforcing immigration law, and if so, at what expense to tax payers, at what cost to our economy, and at what cost to our public safety.
The name Mexicans Without Borders is a horrible choice that has unfortunately allowed Gospel Greg to paint them in a way that is quite frightening, often showing pictures of anarchists holding machine guns who live on another continent and share nothing with our local day laborers other than skin color.
From what I have observed, they have not lobbied the Prince William County Board of Supervisors for “open borders.” If they did, there would be very little Corey Stewart could do for them, even if he agreed.
Their concern is the civil rights and human rights of immigrants (documented and undocumented) living in this county.
Elena, Ms. Chavez is a United States Civil Rights Commission member of the Virginia panel, NOT a Virginia Civil Rights Commission officer nor a Virginia Human Rights Commission officer, so why didn’t she also look at Loudoun County? At Herndon? At the city of Manassas when they were attempting to define family, a more radical change than PWC’s resolution? Or when Manassas joined the 287G program? Why JUST us? She should look at the situation as the WHOLE State of Virignia, not just my or your backyard. For that matter, why isn’t the United States Civil Rights Commission holding hearings on Oklahoma, Arizona, Iriving, Texas, Frederick, Maryland and Georgia? Same for Mr. Bustamante. Where was he when Manassas tried to define family? Where is he for the actions of these other States/Counties?
WHWN – point taken, which is why I’m happy to see an outside entity come here to see for themselves that PWC is not violating anyone’s human or civil rights. Maybe now this subject can be put to rest.
Also, PWC is not the only county to have a “resolution” (or the first), has Mr. Bustamante been to any other county looking for human and civil rights violations?
WHWN, I couldn’t agree with you more on the selection of the name of MWB. The concept the name implies is political suicide and must make it difficult to gain broad support.
You are correct about the concerns of MWB, they are concerned about immigrant’s rights and I agree that everyone is entitled to basic human rights.
In talking or chatting with some leaders in MWB (Mr. Steinbeck, Ms. Lyall and Mr. Juarez), some of their specific concerns with the resolution deals with interaction of illegal aliens with the police. They want no questioning of illegal alien’s status by the police. They were also against the Jail (ADC) becoming 287(g) certified as well as the local police being certified in 287(g). Everyone is entitled to their opinion on whether the police should question immigration status, but its difficult to defend against people who are already in jail not having their immigration status checked. What part of society doesn’t want criminals identified and deported or not to return to our neighborhoods?
Linda Chavez, in her current role, is the Chair for The Immigration Subcommittee of the Virginia State Advisory Committee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rightshttp://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/480666.html
The reason they came to PWC seems fairly evident to me. At the time, PWC was in the news, for having the toughest anti illegal immigration policy with FAIR using us as their experimental rat. You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this.
Enigma can be positive AND negative sometimes. You seem to be spliting hairs on this issue and I don’t understand why.
“Roseanne Sciarrone has experience with the county’s immigration crackdown. She says police confused her husband with another man they were investigating for stalking a local pool.
“He was pulled over because he’s hispanic and he looked like another hispanic,” she said.
Police checked his ID and let him go, but not before questioning his legal status.
“Well, it was humiliating because it happened in front of the school and we know people,” said Sciarrone.”
Lucky Duck I agree with you. Once people are in jail, I think we should learn everything we can about them. If they are wanted for arrest in another state or in another country, and if they are wanted for violation of immigration and customs laws. Once this information is known, it will but up to ICE to decide what to do.
That’s why I think the April 29th decision to repeal “Probable Cause” and check people only after arrest was a good compromise between what the Greg&Cory Show wanted vs. what MWB wanted. Moving the mandated immigration checks from the streets to the magistrate saved tax payer money. It protected our Police Officers from law suits. It saved money in our Adult Detention Center because less people would be brought in on immigration charges (contrary to the Chairman’s specious but loudly amplified claims) and we’d have less over-crowding in our jails and thus less “renting” jail space in other Virginia jails to the tune of $200,000 per month! It also allows our Police Officers to stay out on patrol rather than doing immigration paper work. It was a win/win deal in my view. But few people understand what happened because the media coverage has been so poor.
Elena, I will concede Ms. Chavez’s title to you, although I think we are calling her the same thing.
I don’t know about splitting hairs…I just object to outside people being brought in by both sides when other jurisdictions such as the State of Arizona and Irving, Texas, have, in my opinion, enacted legislation that is as or more strict than ours.
WhWn, the media coverage has also been confusing. I watched on Television as the Chairman said one thing and the Police Chief appeared to say something else.
WHWN: I definitely agree that absolutely, when someone is in jail they should be completely investigated as to their legal status, etc. These are sort of the “worst of the worst” and I would hope no one would have a great deal of heartburn if these people were deported at some point. However, the scary thing is all the cases you read about those kind of people coming back after being deported, and committing yet more crimes.
And I also think you are right – the latest version of the resolution with the removal of the probable cause part, was a good compromise. I consider it sort of a “softening” of the resolution (despite how it is spun by some parties in the debate) – but again I think it was a good idea to remove the most controversial aspect of the resolution. And, it also saves the county from probably a lot of lawsuits, and eliminates the whole issue of having cameras in police cars. Although that isn’t such a bad idea if it would not be expensive or if it would be paid for by federal dollars. Cameras in the cars would protect the police from other lawsuits having nothing to do with the immigration debate.
Anyway, for me one thing that is “non-negotiable” is that ALL people in jail/prison should be having their status checked, and everything else about them checked (looking for outstanding arrest warrants, and things like that – which I’m sure is already normal practice when anyone gets booked into jail). It’s up for debate a lot of other things in what I’ll just call the “immigration debate”, but I would hope checking the status of everyone jailed is something that isn’t too controversial. Although I know I’ve read somewhere that MWB objects even to that – but I don’t know if that’s true or just the press hyping stuff up. However, MWB takes some extreme positions, so it would not surprise me if they objected to people being arrested and booked into jail having their status checked.
hello – you said: ” I really don’t mind Bustamante coming to PWC at all. I in no way agree with his comments but I actually think that it’s great that he is coming here so that he can finally show everyone that there are no human rights being violated here in PWC.”
Well, I’ll reserve judgement I guess until I hear what he says, but so far everything I’ve read about him doesn’t give me any hope that he will find that no human rights are being violated here in PWC. I suppose i should give him the benefit of the doubt, but I think he has an agenda, and that is to find there ARE human rights violations, even if there aren’t. Well, it will be very interesting to see what he says, but personally I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t come out and say he has found human rights violations here! Guess we’ll just have to wait and see!
“Well, when we opted to be F.A.I.R.’s rat experiment, we opened ourselves up for observation and analysis.”
Did we? This group keeps going back and forth. At one point, you were claiming that PWC is known as a “racist” area to live in and we have a bad reputation outside of the county. So first you say:
“Our “resolution” is too local and a discussion about open borders would have to take place at national and international levels.” Thus, saying it is a LOCAL issue. Then you say that we opened ourselves up to international observation and analysis?
Again, I’m confused as usual by your posts. So which is it? Or is your ADHD/PTSD/PPD acting up again?
“For what I propose, it would be enough that the Congress of the Union, reform the Constitution, declaring that the Mexican Nationality becomes nontransferable for all its legal effects to be exercised in the Mexican territory. This way if a Mexican by birth acquires U.S. citizenship, that fact would allow him to vote in the United States, without loosing his Mexican nationality. ”
Doesn’t sound the “open boarders”, sounds more like he wants to have his cake and eat it too!
I don’t see any point in Linda Chavez coming here either. It seemed to get everyone all worked up and I have yet to see an end result of that visit. Perhaps I overlooked something. I don’t particularly like outsiders either, Lucky Duck. I can remember being outraged at an Eagles concert a number of years ago. Don Henley stopped the show for a good 20 minutes to pontificate about Disney coming in to Prince Willilam County.
It really wasn’t any of his business. Anytime some hot shot comes in here, I think of Don Henley thinking everyone should be impressed with his opinion.
I fail to see the objective of Mr. Bustamante coming here. I don’t care if he does or doesn’t.
I can’t see the harm in having someone whose job it is to look out for people’s rights coming here to ask people how people are doing. We still have neighbors here who are new immigrants and don’t understand why this has happened. Some are undocumented, or have undocumented members in their family. If any such person HAS been victimized or had their human rights violated, we wouldn’t know about it because they are now afraid to report such things to the Police.
If we can agree it’s at least possible that human rights violations have occurred in this hate-filled environment we see evidenced periodically at Citizens Time, why not have someone inquire? Our Police force, as honorable as they are, can no longer serve OR protect these people. Are we to argue that no one should?
I agree with you Moon Howler. Local democracy should be local. What exactly has come out of all of those outsider’s visits? Nothing but discontent left here.
WHWN, while I respect your opinion on outsiders, I have to disagree on your comment that “the local police can no longer serve OR protect these people”. They can and do. There has always been a hesistancy on the part of illegal immigrants to contact the police under any circumstances even before this rutesolution. After it passed in its original form, there was an increased amount of fear. But the police deal the Latino community everyday, in situations in which they are victims, witnesses or just people in need of help. They DO protect and serve the entire population.
WHWN, do you live in Prince William County?
But Linda Chavez did what our Board SHOULD have done. They asked well known immigration experts their opinions on immigration. They found out that FAIR and IRLI had been integral to our resolution. They helped connect the dots that we didn’t even know existed. Corey admitted that they had done NO staff research, just relied on anectodal “evidence” from citizens (i.e. Greg). I think what they did was invaluable to shedding light on a process that was kept in the dark. They performed the job that citizens were entitled to in this county. At least they attempted to create a process that our Board never initiated, but should have.
I’m going to answer Lucky Duck on the current thread about Bustamante’s non-visit.
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