84 thoughts on “Liberty Wall Hearing Postponed

  1. Red Dawn

    “I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.”

    HOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLLLL…RIGHT ON 🙂

  2. “and they count on people like KG and the blog owners to come to their defense.” My goodness, I HOPE they don’t count on me! I don’t have much to give anyone except my talking and that’s of dubious value.

  3. NotGregLetiecq

    Red Dawn, I’m not sure who you quoted above, but isn’t “broad brushing” the entire basis for the anti-immigrant lobby’s argument that certain undesirables don’t assimilate, won’t assimilate, won’t become citizens if they are offered the chance, grow corn in their yards, don’t learn English, and should therefore be disposed of ASAP?

    I agree there is some “broad brushing” going on in Manassas, on walls and on blogs. But only one side is turning their prejudice into a political movement on a national scale. The guy with the wall sign is just protesting a ill-conceived and ill-fated law.

  4. MH, I do know what you are saying. When I saw that sign again tonight, I thought, hmmmmmmm. The part about European Americans….yes, a broad brush but there has been teaching out there that yes, “we” are not nice people and have not been in the past. These teaching come from US, “Americans.” So it is not surprising someone would just repeat that teaching, no matter what ethnicity that person is. And as we know, the United States has perpetrated some incredible injustices as it has done good.

    There’s a huge, never ending discussion among academics about this kind of thing. Some people claim all professors are “liberal” (whatever that means) and because of being “liberal”, they don’t teach respect for the United States. Supposedly, liberal professors only teach students how bad we are. I’ve heard some of this criticism of the U.S. while pursuing my own studies, but never to such an extent. I also know enough not to believe everything I hear or read. Some people accept anything, though, and as we know, that’s dangerous. So while this message might not be one we want to read or hear, it IS one being spread through education, the media, etc. but not nearly as much as some would claim. (Inside Higher Ed has dozens of stories and studies on this very topic if you are ever really interested.) The point is, this is a MAINSTREAM message we are reading, for better or for worse.

    I’ve heard Native Americans speak the same way (and of course, the sign is partly authored by the tribes). There are many, many Native American tribes who are still ANGRY. Their anger has not been reconciled. I wouldn’t presume to know how to reconcile it or even where to begin, but I do know that festering anger is toxic to anyone and to any people.

    In a way, I take this sign the same way I took Rev. Wright’s message (the one that doomed him in the Obama campaign)–as a strong statement wielded in anger and a history of oppression. Does that make the statement useful in this situation? No. Does it resolve anything? No. Does it create more tension? Yes. But it’s the same thing as people getting frustrated with “foreigners.” You know–“Those damn foreigners taking all our jobs.” We read and hear statements like those all the time. Are they racist? I don’t even know that I would call that a racist statement because it’s SO general. And I hear the anger there, the fear. That’s what that sign is about–anger and fear. But there isn’t any threat of violence (like we see from “the other”). There isn’t any “you people are dog turds” in the sign. It’s a silent yet blood curdling scream in the middle of Old Town. And people are screaming back.

    Agree to disagree, MH. You know I still think you’re great!

  5. “But only one side is turning their prejudice into a political movement on a national scale.”

    That’s right, NGL.

  6. Red Dawn

    NotGregLetiecq,

    Red Dawn, I’m not sure who you quoted above, but isn’t “broad brushing”

    I was quoting Moon-howler and it was over a debate that is never ending and that is broad brushing. All I can say, is go back thru the thread and you will see over and over and over and over AGAIN the broad brushing. If that does not work, pick a blog ( lol) or some other source be it tv or the water cooler…broad brushing. Go back and see who and why I quoted. 🙂

  7. Red Dawn

    Not GregLetiecq,

    Sorry, Here is the ENTIRE commentary of what I chose to take that broad brushing statement.

    Moon-howler, 4. July 2008, 21:23

    kgotthardt,

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. After the first message I sort of had a David slaying Goliath moment. I do understand anger and I understand striking back. The second message had a pretty decent message. (The sign was still an eyesore) However, the third message to me, is offensive. It makes no exception for those of us who did to anything to harm anyone. It broadbrushes all of us European Americans.

    I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.

    There are many things to say…Mr. Fernandez chose the wrong things to say. In fact, I have read that sign about 20 times since I was last in Mr. Fernandez’s presence. I am actually rather sorry I didn’t go up to him and tell him to go F*** himself because that is exactly what he is saying to us.

    I am mature enough to not blame the rest of the hispanic community, however.

  8. Moon-howler

    To throw a little more gasoline on the fire, yes, it was I who Red Dawn quoted.
    I think that Mr. Fernandez has every right to say what he says. I just don’t think he has the right to say it where he has said it. That will be for the City of Manassas and the court system to sort out. I do take extreme issue with what he has said because he broadbrushes all Eurpean Americans.

    I am going to ask everyone who has taken issue with what I have said to name me any country, still operational today, that doesn’t have a little dirt under its fingernails in the human rights department.

    KGotthardt, I understand what you are saying about the academic community liking to beat up on America. That will all swing the other way eventually. Political pendulums swing back and forth. This country has no worse track record than many others, and far better than most I can name. We are a country that at least tries to right its wrongs.

    You mentioned American Indians. Yes, many are angry still. Do you blame them? Palestinians are also really pissed off. Lots of folks are pissed off. Being pissed off just isn’t very productive. It solves nothing and saps energy that could be used to improve the quality of life of those who are pissed off.

    The sign functions as a wall. It divides people. It divides people who wouldn’t ordinarily be divided. It name calls. It broadbrushes:

    …Because european americans would rather have a ghost town than live among native americans. They ignore our voices, they ignore our civil and constitutional rights…

    The issue will not be decided on the merits of its speech. The issue will be decided on the basis of land use. However, Mr. Fernandez needs to beware of unintended consequences. He could have forged powerful friendships. Instead, he listened to the uninformed and the unrealistic and chose to create powerful enemies. That is too bad because I think he is basically a decent person. He obviously doesn’t think MY ILK is the least bit decent.

  9. Moon-howler

    NotGregLetiecq, 4. July 2008, 22:57,

    Yes, the little guy is just throwing a stone at the giant. I agree. But he needs to be careful that his stones aren’t peppering the very people who might be on his side. He has not been careful. I know people of moderate voice have tried discussing this with him to no avail.

    I did think about planting some corn in my front yard. I chickened out and put a big tomato bush in instead. Notice the chickened out part? winkwink

  10. Censored bybvbl

    The sign functions as a wall. It divides people. It divides people who wouldn’t ordinarily be divided. It name calls. It broadbrushes:

    …Because european americans would rather have a ghost town than live among native americans. They ignore our voices, they ignore our civil and constitutional rights…

    Moon-howler, I agree with the first paragraph which is yours although I think HSM weilded the first machete that hacked up the community. The sign has become a point of disagreement/division on several levels – whether the very presence of a “billboard” is appropriate in the historic district of Manassas, whether its content is truthful, whether it constitutes “hate speech”,whether it’s the “blog” with the largest readership in the area, whether it’s been erected or stayed erected in violation of zoning ordinances or the building code,whether some people thought that it was the only means left to have their voices heard, whether most of the furor over the first sign (which was much milder)was whipped up by HSM, whether we’re a nation of laws and its removal/stay will be decided by them or whether we’re a community of bullies who will physically destroy a sign that displays that speech of which we disapprove. It’s been an interesting year.

    The second paragraph – from the sign- also contains much truth. The Hispanic community turned out in large numbers (I’d venture to say larger numbers than the Red Circles) for that marathon BOCS meeting. But, their voices – the voices of Prince William County residents( men, women, and their children) – were ignored in favor of emails from across the country generated by a group of questionable repute. The message sent at that meeting was that their voices didn’t matter, that their stake in the community didn’t matter, that non-residents of PWC were more important, that they were invisible…though not as invisible as the Red Circle would prefer.

    I wish I had enough sun for corn or tomatoes.

  11. The Red Circle. I like that. Sounds Commie to me, forboding.

    We’re growing tomatoes this year in our little back yard. We accidenally spread corn via our bird seed to our neighbors, but it turned out to be some kind of weird corn. The squirrels liked it but it wasn’t really human food.

    Viva los pollos!

  12. SecondAlamo

    The billboard states history, and if it wants to accuse our three generations past relatives, then there is some truth, but it accuses the present day individual and that is what is so offensive. I’ve never owned slaves, and as of late haven’t seen any offered on E-Bay either, so hold present day people responsible only for their present day actions. Anything else is just a bunch of offensive lies.

  13. Or las pollas. I guess pollos would be male chickens which would be odd since those are usually roosters?

  14. SA, the word slaves, I believe, refers to the businesses that takes advantage of illegal immigrants by offering small wages, no protection, and potential for blackmail.

    People in general feel like slaves all the time when they feel abused by their employers or the system. Haven’t you ever felt this way, or have you always been blessed to have a kind boss and a great job?

  15. Elvis

    moon howler needs to bend over and howl at his moon, maybe it would listen.

    as for KG and the other crew…maybe after fernandez get’s his sign torn down for him they can erect it in their yards! that would be awesome.

    I’ve been blessed with the most awesome boss in the world! Myself 🙂

  16. Juturna

    “Latino immigrants have been exploited by ungrateful, racist white residents who took advantage of their labor and now want them to leave.”

    To me that that statement from the Post sums up the issue. Which white residents took advantage??? Did they only need their yards mowed once or twice? Homes cleaned once or twice? They have no further need for that labor?? What labor?? Certainly not the folks in Westgate?? Local residents are being held accountable for a federal government that turns a blind eye to businesses that hire illegals?? Mr. Fernandez doesn’t blame business either. Interesting.

    As I’ve said many times, intolerance is intolerance regardless of your position on an issue. It is no different than BVBL. They are the same.

  17. Moon-howler

    Mr. Fernandez needs to learn to use words like ‘some’ if he wants to make political statements. Broadbrushing is a bad thing. <----There's the simplistic version. I feel certain that HSM and the Order of the Red Circle set up shop as close to THE SIGN as possible. Don't think for a minute the fearless leader didn't squeeze as much mileage out of that sign as possible, using it to sign up new membership. Now there will be an entirely new group of people to exploit until they see through the rose colored glasses. That sign generates business for organizations like HSM and F.A.I.R.

  18. Moon-howler

    Elvis, moon-howlers NEVER, EVER bend over. Check out the posture of this critter before checking out the music.

  19. “The Order of the Red Circle”

    LMAO! I love it! All the mystery of Masons but with more than a touch of evil.

  20. “Mr. Fernandez needs to learn to use words like ’some’ if he wants to make political statements.” TOTALLY agree! Amazing how that word can change the entire tone of a statement.

  21. SecondAlamo

    kgotthardt,

    How can you feel like a slave at work when you receive pay and benefits? You may feel that you are in a bad job, but hardly like a slave. Show me one example of a slave in this day and time, and I’ll show you an illegal enterprise! The word slave has lost it’s meaning just as the word racist, because people misapply it constantly to the wrong situation. Racism may still exist, but hardly slavery as defined in colonial days.

  22. Juturna

    The sign is simply an eyesore. I wouldn’t like it if it were a menu or a list of books.

  23. Jedi Master Yoda

    Or a sign that says ‘Juturna is one fine specimen of a woman?’

    2Al, You apparently have never taught or you wouldn’t make such a preposterous statement.

  24. You can be a slave to your job meaning you are in and endless cycle of working for unethical people, doing your best, sarcrificing for the sake of KEEPING a job, endure discrimination and hatred while on the job, but you are still poor. You can be denied benefits, safety, respect, job security and good management yet still be poor….yes, this is just another kind of slavery, SA. Child labor was a kind of slavery. Slavery had nothing to do with whether or not laborors are being paid. Note the other definitions of slavery:

    –a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
    –severe toil; drudgery.

    dictionary.com

  25. Yikes! That post needed some severe editing. Sorry, folks, for the tense problems and typos.

  26. michael

    Reference WHWN 4 Jul 16:46

    Obviously some facts from paleo indian history are missing from the concept of “native” american, some of you so fervently believe was only recent hsitory. Native Americans are actually of Celtic and Asian descent (12,000 years ago), not hispanic descent as so many of you claim and believe that started with Cortez’s invasion (1519) and conquering of the Aztecs. The facts are in paleo indian history and archeology records, you should read some of them before you believe in a “hispanic” or “native” American myth about “turtle island” as an argument to “owning” the country.

  27. michael

    I’m too tired to re-write it, and to promote AWCheney’s great and much needed new site on “illegal” immigration (a much better, responsible journalism, with better facts, better judgment, and less political bias than either bvbl or antibvbl) and I predict will replace both of your sites in balanced and intellectual immigration debate.

    Read for yourself some factual information about the concept of just who is “native” in America. The facts will suprise you and make you angry if you are not Celtic (12,000 years ago) or Asian (10,000 years ago), or Australian aborigines (13-15,000 years ago). They are the original “native” Americans, not the people you claim are “native” in this eyesore of a biased racial bigot’s hate board.

    http://scheney.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/thomas-jefferson-and-the-immigration-debate/#comment-75

  28. michael

    AW’s site is really the first blog I’ve seen on the “illegal” immigration debate that will not leave you with a headache and worry for your health resulting from the stress of dealing with ignorance and malicious malice, as a cover for emotional hatred for gender, recial, ethnic and religious groups not like yourselves. Both sites (antibvbl and bvbl) are sites for racial “bigots” to each spew their hatred for the other and spin misinformation about the other to influence political groups and rebellious groups to action. Personally in looking at the debate I simply side with the “group” that favors lawfulness and law enforcement to protect the entire community equally. AW has that mental ability to rise above the hatred and address the “facts” and enforce the law fairly and equitably for all. She gets my vote for good leadership and wise counsel.

  29. Rick Bentley

    When his property burned down, was he renting to illegals? How many were crammed in to the dilapidated property?

    Seems to me this guy is basically throwing a fit because the city won’t let him build chicken coops and shacks on his property.

  30. Censored bybvbl

    Yawn…

  31. Moon-howler

    Michael, if I am giving you a headache you have more than gotten even with me.

    No one here has EVER said that Native Americans are the offspring of hispanics on this blog. I seriously doubt if you have a clue what any of us think. You come over here and assume the entire blog things something and start that finger a wagging.

    I agree. Mrs. Cheney has a very nice blog. It is attractive and any information that goes up will be very well researched, albeit usually from conservative sources which is fine. I would expect Mrs. Cheney, who is a conservative, to research using conservative sources. Since she is new to the game, it is great that you are giving her such good advertisement. Have you told her lately how great her blog is?

  32. Moon-howler

    Rick, the city of Manassas will work it all out, eventually. I trust you have read the postings about this subject over on bvbl? Several city employees have written several very intelligent, informative posts about how this all works.

  33. Michael

    Moonhowler, you have not given me a headache, most of your comments are well though out. I only disagree with some of them, specifically those that hint at or directly advocate we need try to “fix” the system by creating a conceptual argument that we are obligated to give amnesty to those “illegals” who have broken the law. Amnesty was a disaster the first time and will be an even larger disaster the next time. I stand by those “majority” of citizens who want the existing law enforced in it’s entirety. The views of most of those on this blog are in the “minority” on the issue of law enforcement. That is why ultimately those who believe this way will lose. The fight is not about racism, or ethnic “evils” it is simply about enforceing or not enforcing a gender, racial, religious, ethnic group neutral law. That is as simple a problem as you can define and not give people “headaches”.

    I am with ALL of you that racism and ethnic wars or anger is “ilegal” and irresponsible, I am just pointing out to ALL of you that significant numbers of “minority” groups are ALSO guilty of modern racism, and ethnic hatred by their current “exclusion” practices and “ethnic focused behaviors and political alignments”, ALL expressing bigotry toward the “vast majority”, for simply desiring law enforcement and “I don’t agree with any one who is demaning any “more” than that, specifically ethnic “wars”. I join you in the attack on a few racists on EITHER SIDE.

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