AntiBVBL formed at the end of February 2008 as a counter movement to the tactics employed by Help Save Manassas & bvbl.net.  No longer will Prince William County be bullied by members of an organization recently designated a Nativistgroup. When voices arise, sounding off racial slurs, invoking language that dehumanizes our follow man, we will challenge the integrity of those words each and every time. We are a moderate voice in the immigration debate opposed to the vitriol anti-immigrant rhetoric that has been so prevalent in our community. AntiBVBL was designed to provide an uncensored place for respectful dialogue among opposing viewpoints. We do not presume to have all the answers, however, we do advocate a comprehensive immigration reform plan that should encompass the fiscal/economic realities of immigration, social impacts on communities and the human condition that compels people to flee their homeland.   There are no simple answers to the complicated issue of immigration.  Throughout our history, immigration has been contentious, and this modern era will wrestle with those same immigration questions.  However, the question remains, how will we, during these trying times, resolve these dilemmas?

197 Thoughts to “What is AntiBVBL ?”

  1. Moon-howler

    Censored, can you provide a link to the Nick Miroff article? I love it! “The downfall is merely classic ego-driven overreaching.” Priceless!

  2. tickle_me_ELVIS

    elena,

    this is bull. you post peoples information online then delete it after they have enough time to pull it down, then go on a tirade telling people not to do it. too many of the lies and/or false-truths here. I used to think KG was a detestable individual but you are far worse. at least she’s up front with her attitude, you go in the back door like a snake in the grass.

    alanna, dont know what to think about her. honestly I think she’s just another hanger-on like moon howler.

  3. NotGregLetiecq

    Elvis, get a life and be thankful you never showed your face at any party or screening.

    We’ve known since the beginning that you had no argument, no knowledge of the subject, and no rhetorical skills. “No credibility” came soon after with your outrageously bigoted remarks one after another.

    It’s obvious you can’t win by talking about the issue because people here are too well informed. Go back to the smelly bathroom if the best you can do for misinformation is “I went shopping.” That is HILARIOUS.

    I would have laughed at you quietly li’l Elvis, but you’re being such a poor loser. Sorry!

  4. I really cannot say what BVBL is because I’ve been on it like twice. Apparently, I am one of their favorite people to hate but since hatred runs rampant, I’m in solid, hated company. Apparently, too, some people love to rant and rave about me personally when they know nothing about me. I suppose I could claim defamation of character, but what’s the point? They defame many people and you can’t prove any substantial loss from it (unless the prevent you from getting a job, I suppose). Besides, who has money or time for lawyers?

    I don’t see HSM as being separate from BVBL. The blog and the group have the same leader. If I ran my own community group, I would be damn careful what I published on my blog. But then, I am not running my own group nor am I anything other than a citizen. The same can be said for the rest of us here—Alanna and Elena run a blog, not a group. They do a fine job of it, too, I might add.

  5. What does Freedom Fry mean exactly?

  6. Moon-howler

    It is time to start ignoring the trouble makers. Elvis was warned. He is once again starting to just be offensive because he has run out of things to say.

    Shunning time.

  7. Moon-howler,

    If you feel the police are hired guns, what is your opinion of the military?

    Hopefully, we won’t have to suffer martial law in the future but all the indicators are pointing in the wrong direction. We came close in New Orleans but thankfully, martial law was never pronounced.

    On the police front, most people express indignation over what happened to Luis Ramirez who was beaten to death in Shenandoah, PA. However, most people fail to recognize that when the police arrived on scene, they had an eye witness to the crime who personally knew the perpetrators and knew in which direction they fled. Yet, the police did nothing for days. The immediate response would be to arrest the suspects in order to preserve the DNA evidence (Luis’s hairs/skin embedded in their clothes, shoes, fingernails). The police would also want to separate them before they had a chance to come up with story. When people are interrogated separately, they are much more likely to make mistakes.

    Now that these murderers have eliminated the DNA evidence, they are actually going to plead not guilty. And they will get away with it. Without the help of the police, that would not have been possible.

    Moon-howler, why do you think the police refused to arrest them until after they had enough time to destroy the DNA evidence and meet together to get their story worked out? They had an eye witness who personally knew the perps didn’t they?

  8. Moon-howler

    I don’t know, Mackie. I was growing up in the days when Frank Serpico had been a national hero. I had hoped that things had gotten much better. I feel that law enforcement officers are far more professional than they were back then. No profession is without a bad apple or 2.

    I suppose my original question extended beyond the borders of the USA.

    I have worked with many retired military people. I get the feeling that my jaundiced eye is there, rather than cops.

  9. Elena

    I have only watched a small portion of the video Mackie, but what struck me was this mans status was even a question?! Who CARES if he was documented or not? Does it somehow diminish the barbarism of this act if he here “illegally”?

  10. Moon-howler,

    I don’t know, Mackie.

    You don’t know huh? Are you sure that’s not a ‘cop-out’? Did you ever see the movie mississippi burning? What do you think motivated the small-town police in that true-story? Could it have been racism? I guess we should try your way and wait until the police come forward with a full confession. Just like the south got rid of Jim Crow laws all by themselves because they had a change of heart, huh?

    The murder happened on july 12 and the murderers weren’t arrested until july 25. The following article should help illuminate why the police were willfully negligent here. It is and excellent article by someone who lives right next to shenandoah.

    http://needcowbell.blogspot.com/2008/07/hate-murder-and-football.html

    Here’s an quote from the article about the mentality of minorities. A mentality and fear white people usually don’t care to understand if understanding means they have to start challenging the institutions around them.

    You see, it’s much more comforting to say to yourself ‘It’s only one or two bad apples after all.’. It’s much more comforting until someone you love is dying in the street like an animal.

    I bet a lot of people in Shenandoah truly do not understand how this possibly could’ve happened in their community. They’re good hearted, well intentioned people who have never had to see things any other way, because life has always gone along according to their way, and they don’t even know it. I can well imagine how this has torn through this little town.

    I also know there are plenty of people there who know exactly why this happened. People of color who have to be hyper aware of their white neighbors’ approval and comfort level every day of their lives. You can bet they’re under no illusions.

    Moon-howler, do you think latinos in Shenandoah are as confident as whites that they can expect justice from the police?

    And if they can’t expect the police to protect them, what should they do to survive?

  11. Elena

    Elvis,
    I encourage you to give me your phone number so we can meet and have a face to face conversation. You can e-mail admin privately. Go ahead, post this supposed “snake in the grass” activity I am guilty of, you are just playing a silly game, one that behooves your age, like I said, either 10th or 11th grade. Make sure if we meet, include your parents, so I can share with them examples of your rude and uncivil behavior.

    “elena, this is bull. you post peoples information online then delete it after they have enough time to pull it down, then go on a tirade telling people not to do it. too many of the lies and/or false-truths here. I used to think KG was a detestable individual but you are far worse. at least she’s up front with her attitude, you go in the back door like a snake in the grass.”

  12. Moon-howler

    Mackie,

    Frankly, I prefer to keep my mouth shut on issues I don’t have time to read, digest, and give some thought to. Frankly, the best advice I can give you is to discuss it with someone who doesn’t mind being insulted if they disagree with you or don’t immediately jump on yur bandwagon. I really don’t have time for cop bashing. This is your cause, not mine. You didn’t appear to have any interest in my question about the military, our National ‘Cop,’ so I guess any attempt to have a dialogue with you was really a waste of time. I won’t repeat the mistake.

  13. I don’t bash cops. I bash people who violate the rights of others.

  14. Lucky Duck

    Mackie, if you don’t bash, what about these quotes below of yours made without any supporting proof or documentation? If one makes such careless statements, others may call it “bashing”. Imagine the careless statements one could make about illegal aliens without supporting documentation…oh wait, that’s called BVBL….isn’t it?

    “I have no problem with cops who have the morals to do their job and respect our rights at the same time. Unfortunately that’s about 2percent of the force. Even the so-called good ones aren’t so good when they cover up the crimes of the bad ones.”

    Where is the supporting documentation showing the 2 % good and 98% bad? I must have missed that article in my legal defense quarterly.

    or this one

    Mackie, 20. July 2008, 0:51
    I wasn’t going to bring this up but I had a long conversation today with a constitutional lawyer who has presented cases before the Supreme Court. He told me that in his opinion, police officers perjure themselves 90% of the time on the witness stand.

    Again, where is the proof? Some nameless lawyer saying something? Now there’s something to base your statment on…

    I have more if you’d like…

  15. Juturna

    Okay. looks like we have some folks that can’t or won’t follow through on their comments, questions or accusations. Here we are not afraid to face things head on. (Now there’s an attribute of the souls on Anti). It’s not the end of the world to be wrong about something guys. In fact its pretty liberating and actually makes you look smarter for it.

    Man up. I heard that once and thought it was terribly macho and it seems appropriate here.

  16. NotGregLetiecq

    Mackie, those stastics are obviously figures of speech without any basis. They express how you feel when you read about a poorly investigated hate crime. Am I right? You feel pain because of the Shenandoah murder. So do I as a person of color and as a human being. I wish there was something I could do, but if I did it wouldn’t be to lash out at all police officers because of the actions of a few. I know you are upset, but think about it. Thinking ill of a whole class of people because of the actions of a few? Isn’t that the definition of the very prejudice we seek to overcome?

    This is a PWC blog and in PWC we respect the police profession as The Blunder Twins (Stewart and Letiecq) and their remaining clones found out a few months ago.

    Statements like the ones Lucky Duck quoted back above make me wonder if you are a double agent from the dark screen trying to create rifts in the broad coalition we have formed here, across party and ethnic lines.

    Not going to work if that’s your aim. If you are truly one of us, I humbly request you retract those remarks.

  17. Mackie, look. I’ve had minor run-ins with cops as well as ex-cops and even those haven’t ruined my overall perception of them. Yeah, there are jerks out there. There are jerks EVERYWHERE! But the fact remains, if you call a cop in this county, you probably are going to get a professional who wants to do his/her job the best s/he can.

    The public sees cops when the bad stuff is going on—and that’s bad because it makes us believe cops are bad, that they are “out to get us” or are under the influence of criminals. We see television shows that glorify or vilify cops so some of us end up expecting cops to be super-sleuths, Barney Fife, or “good cop gone bad.” (I won’t even bother sharing with you some of my past, fantastic notions of what I thought cops were and were not. Suffice to say, none of them were based in reality.)

    I’m not sure why you are on this cop topic, Mackie, unless you are some kind of anarchist. And if you are, well, okay. Most of us are not. When we are discussing the police in this forum, we are doing so within a context, and it seems you have lost that context along the way because you simply don’t like cops. Again, that’s fine if that is your opinion. But it’s not really relevant.

  18. Oh and one more thing. In this county, since Anti and the general public have openly appreciated the police department and Chief, it would be very odd if the police suddenly turned overtly racist since they have earned a good reputation. If anyone is to be blamed for the Hispanic and immigrant communities distrusting police, it is the BOCS who began the fear mongering through the resolution.

  19. Juturna

    Yes, KG and my point to Mackie is that the generally accepted outcome of racial profiling is the number of lawsuits. PWCPD has had none, nada, zip, zed filed. If his percentange of 2% were even close to the truth, we’d have 550 officer running amouk abusing the good folks of PWC. Absolutely not true. And ZERO lawsuits……..

    There are good and bad people everywhere. Are we just getting up to speed on this? I agree that those that hold public trust are and should be held to a higher standard. However, once again, we seem to hold those we are willing to pay the least to a higher standard than those we pay more. Do I think that politician x should be paid higher than a detective or a teacher??? And we wonder why…….

    Get what you pay for. I’ve been saying that for 13 months. Wake up everyone. Wake up.

  20. Lucky Ducky,

    When people don’t like the message, they always attack the messenger. Some even gone so far as to keep a running log of everything said.

    However, I noticed your silence about the willful criminal negligence of the police in Shenandoah that I raised above. They allowed murderers to get away, destroy DNA evidence, and prepare their stories for the police.

    Instead of chasing the murderers, they roughed up and handcuffed the latino friend who tried to break up the fight and even searched his car for a ‘gun’…but we all know they were looking for anything to nail him on.

    Even though they had an eyewitness who personally knew the perpetrators, knew their names, knew their addresses, and could easily pick them out of a lineup…the police refused to arrest the perpetrators for over a week.

    I wonder if the police would have refused to arrest the perpetrators if the guy lying on the sidewalk dying had been a police officer?

  21. Juturna

    When the message includes statistics that can’t be verified, the messenger should be attacked. That’s called a lie.

  22. Juturna

    Back to being a victim, eh? Stay there, it works better for you.

  23. Lucky Duck

    Mackie, unlike you, I do not report on what I do not know and I don’t make things up and classify them as “facts”. I don’t even tangle with your screen name as you do mine.

    I commented several threads ago that I felt what happened in Pennsylvania was a shame and unforgiveable. That is my opinion. I don’t have any facts about the investigation so I what can I say that is “true”?

    Was DNA collected? I don’t know, but you seem to know it wasn’t. How is that so?
    Were interviews conducted of all suspects and witnesses? I don’t know, do you?
    Were items of clothing collected, perhaps with trace evidence (hair/fibers)? I don’t know, do you?

    So what else can I comment on that I know is true? Some times “no comment” is best until the facts are all known.

    I wil say that initial actions by the police are done out of not yet knowing many facts. Have you ever been on a a scene where there is total chaos? Where people are injured or dead or bleeding? Where others are screaming and you are not quite sure what has happened? Where you, arriving in the midst of chaos are not yet sure who is right or wrong? Not quite sure who is friend or who is foe? I imagine instinct takes over and some times instincts are correct and some times they are not. Split second judgments that we all get to sit here and analyze several weeks after those few minutes.

    Your statements and “facts” are outlandish and unsupportable. I notice you still have not produced support or admitted your error. I have not attacked the messenger, I have simply asked him/her to prove what what said. Once again, you have failed.

    Your true colors are obvious to me.

  24. NotGregLetiecq

    Mackie just say you’re sorry so we can go back to our usual conversation.

  25. Lucky Ducky,

    I wil say that initial actions by the police are done out of not yet knowing many facts. Have you ever been on a a scene where there is total chaos? Where people are injured or dead or bleeding? Where others are screaming and you are not quite sure what has happened? Where you, arriving in the midst of chaos are not yet sure who is right or wrong? Not quite sure who is friend or who is foe? I imagine instinct takes over and some times instincts are correct and some times they are not. Split second judgments that we all get to sit here and analyze several weeks after those few minutes.

    Amazing.

    If the guy convulsing, foaming at the mouth, and dying in the street had been a police officer…a little birdie tells me that the perpetrators would have been hunted down and arrested that very night.

    No doubt.

  26. Elena

    Mackie,
    It is clear you have complete mistrust of police officers. We understand that is your perspective. You clearly have had other experiences that shape your views. You have a right to feel that way, there have been horrible events that have happened at the hands of some police officers, but HERE, in PWC, what we are telling you is that we have faith in our police force. I think Lucky Ducks point in the “broad brush”tactic, is that it can be turned around and “mis”used against undocumneted workers, that has been Gregs tactic, and very successful one I might add. There are bad apples in every profession, but the reason you are getting such resistence to your continued focus on the “evils” of law enforcement, from almost all posters here, is that Chief Deane has been a model of integrity and courage. We don’t feel comfortable with your generalized bashing of the police.

  27. Elena,

    I think Lucky Ducks point in the “broad brush”tactic, is that it can be turned around and “mis”used against undocumneted workers, that has been Gregs tactic, and very successful one I might add.

    Lucky Ducky’s intention here is to look for ways to discredit the messenger in order to shift attention away from the message. Nobody here needs to agree with me on any issue, but for some (perhaps official) reason, Lucky Ducky has assigned themselves the task of smearing my name. From comparing me to a dancing 12 year old girl (a quite strange choice of comparisons) to trying to associate me with certain tactics, his goal is to focus on me so that focus is drawn away from what I’m saying. Only she/he can answer why.

    And you keep trying to interpret my words in some way to make them look like an attack on Chief Deane. That is quite odd considering I’ve barely said anything about him except to say that he is a decent man who would have sent a much stronger signal if he had resigned in protest. I don’t think my statement is inaccurate.

    My perspective may make some people uncomfortable, but a little discomfort oftentimes accompanies a new perspective. Discomfort does not equal injustice. However, complacency in the face of injustice can hurt people…as you pointed out in your first speech before the BOCS on this issue. Luckily we still have a media that believes in holding officials accountable for their actions. Tellingly, the local paper in Shenandoah met with official resistance when trying to cover the story:

    When a reporter initially asked to gain access to the incident log in the locked police station Thursday, borough Manager Joseph Palubinsky questioned why The REPUBLICAN & Herald wanted to see it.

    “I think The REPUBLICAN has done enough damage already,” Palubinsky said. Palubinsky did not clarify his concern regarding reporter access to the log or how specifically the newspaper’s coverage of the high-profile homicide on a public street had been damaging.

    Police departments like the Shenandoah, PA police are sending a strong positive signal to the Robert Duecaster’s out there. If not for the national spotlight, actions indicate that the Luis Ramirez case would have been swept under the rug. Our complacency about injustice also emboldens people like Robert Duecaster. He continually posts on BVBL that people should be stocking up on ‘guns and ammo’. And he has publicly stated that he intends to ‘repel this invasion one way or another’. The number of people who feel the same way that he does is growing and growing. After the next massive terrorist attack inside the US, does anyone doubt that the minutemen on the border will begin to shoot immigrants on sight?

    The antidote is accountability.

  28. Censored bybvbl

    Police departments like the Shenandoah, PA police are sending a strong positive signal to the Robert Duecaster’s out there. If not for the national spotlight, actions indicate that the Luis Ramirez case would have been swept under the rug. Our complacency about injustice also emboldens people like Robert Duecaster. He continually posts on BVBL that people should be stocking up on ‘guns and ammo’. And he has publicly stated that he intends to ‘repel this invasion one way or another’. The number of people who feel the same way that he does is growing and growing. After the next massive terrorist attack inside the US, does anyone doubt that the minutemen on the border will begin to shoot immigrants on sight?

    Mackie, that’s precisely why I feel that Chief Deane should NOT have resigned in protest. His resignation is what many of the Black Velvets wanted because he stood in the way of their agenda. I don’t want a county police chief who thinks along the line of Robert Duecaster. Perhaps Shenandoah, PA has one that thinks that way – that will remain to be seen as I feel confident that that situation will be looked into more deeply.

  29. Juturna

    Again Mackie you hold others to a standard you won’t hold your self to – accountability.

  30. Elena

    Mackie,
    I don’t think your concerns are irrelevant into specific cases. However, you stated that 99% of police officers lie and only 2% are good(or something to that effect). There is a story on SPLC ( I believe) where minutemen were prosecuted for their illegal behavior. The point is that we can discuss specific cases, express concerns about law enforcemnt without the broad brush.

  31. Censored,

    Mackie, that’s precisely why I feel that Chief Deane should NOT have resigned in protest. His resignation is what many of the Black Velvets wanted because he stood in the way of their agenda.

    They did not want him to resign, they wanted to fire him. There’s a big difference.

    If he had resigned it would have sent a very powerful signal to the whole county and the BOCS There is a chance it would have killed the resolution right there.

  32. Censored bybvbl

    They did not want him to resign, they wanted to fire him. There’s a big difference.

    I think the result would have been the same. They, the Black Velvets, would have claimed that he’d been forced out regardless of what he had said. At that point you would have had to rely on the BOCS to stand up against Letiecq and I don’t think they, the BOCS, were there yet.

  33. Juturna

    Mackie

    Not everyone runs.

  34. Juturna,

    Not everyone runs.

    I suppose Lt. Ehren Watada ‘ran away’ too…

  35. Juturna

    Mackie

    Just what are you attempting to accomplish? You have some very thought provoking ideas, but on this topic you are not making any headway or making people think. Do you want to convince everyone that Lucky Duck is a cop? The what, beat him up for it? Do you think Chief Deane is part of the 2% or the 98%?

    What is your goal??? We all agree that there are good and bad everywhere.

    Guess I am spitting into the wind – you don’t answer questions.

  36. Juturna,

    I’m not trying to accomplish anything or establish anything. I’m only sharing my point of view. And I don’t know why people keep recasting my ideas as an attack on Chief Deane when I’ve barely said a word about him. I only brought the subject up because Elena above sounded like she thought I was attacking Chief Deane and I wanted to clarify that I wasn’t.

  37. Elena

    Mackie,
    IF we did not have a Chief Deane, we very well could have been a differnt place right now. That point IS very valid. What if we had someone like Sherrif Joe( I think that is his name?). We could very well be a real crisis, much more so than what we faced with Corey and Greg. I guess it’s your 99% and 2% that, even to me, seems like a very unfair generalization.

  38. Not if you’re Luiz Ramirez.

  39. Mackie, I’m curious. Have you had negative experiences with the police personally? I’m asking because sometimes those experiences compel us to really research a topic and dive head-first into it. I hear a lot of people asking what your motives are. I guess I’m kind of asking that as well, but it’s more like, “why do you hold the perspective you do?”

  40. KG,

    What happened to me is too difficult to write about. I’ll never forget it. Luckily I had a video camera at the time and it can tell the story…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc2KinHWiM&NR=1

  41. Moon-howler

    Katherine asked a serious question and got a distasteful answer. Not funny and not appropriate on so very many levels, IMHO.

  42. Elena

    Second Moon-howler on this one. I only got as far as the first youtube, maybe two minutes, and it was really not funny on multiple levels.

  43. Sorry to offend your sensibilities but this series is hilarious. These are comedy skits.

  44. Red Dawn

    Mackie,

    I will be the LONE person that gets and will defend you as I see the HUMOR and you have not shown ME otherwise to doubt. I found it funny but then again humor comes in different forms it IS up to the PERSON to receive and ANALYZE it 🙂
    Lucky Duck, etc, I would do this for you as I do with the same eyes I do for Mackie, UNTIL PROVEN WRONG 🙂 Cheers!

  45. Red Dawn

    Should even include that I have 🙂

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