Greg L said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:37 am:
Monticup, I understand your frustration and outrage, but try to refrain from characterizing all illegal aliens as nascent criminals. Some are, but it would appear that they’re a pretty small minority. With somewhere around 12 million illegal aliens in the US by conservative estimates, if they were all predisposed to criminal behavior we’d be far worse off than we are. There are about 300,000 illegal aliens in Virginia, and we certainly don’t have a crime explosion that such numbers would create.

A big problem however is that of those 300,000 we have no idea who they are. Among them are certainly some of the worst folks you could imagine from both a crime and a national security perspective. In order to ensure these bad actors aren’t present, the lawful deportation of as many illegal aliens as possible is a way to ensure we remove those who pose the most significant threat as well as (perhaps more significantly) discourage other bad actors from unlawfully entering the country.

If we cannot control our borders, we are no longer a sovereign nation, and our democracy is in grave peril. As we seek to do so, we have to be certain that what we ask for is reasoned and responsible. We can’t do that very well by saying all illegal aliens are invariably rapists and murderers without undermining our arguments. There’s enough provable and unambiguous data out there to support our arguments without stretching so much, and in ways that can become counterproductive.

We have to maintain a higher standard than anyone else, and while it might not be fair, that’s just how it is. Let’s do our best to be better than those arguing the other side.

Acutally, it’s almost refreshing to see Mr. Leteicq make this kind of statement. It’s in sharp contrast to his infamous ‘Dog for Sale’ thread. Apparently he is coming to the realization that in order to be considered a rational voice in the immigration debate he can no longer permit the previously employed rhetoric and mischaracterizations of all ‘illegals’ as being rapists, murderers etc… To what extent this transformation is a result of our efforts might never be known but I feel confident that we have contributed to forming the terms of this discussion. Congratulations to everyone for their continued participation.

134 Thoughts to “BVBL Strives for High Standard?”

  1. Elena

    Great words of encouragment. I honestly do try to have compassion for people on the other side. Underneath it all, these people are afraid, if I believed all the propoganda and lies, I would terrified also.

  2. Taking a mere assumption that an individual is posting under multiple pseudonyms (such as Greg) and promoting it as fact is hardly indicative of the promotion of fact and reason. It’s rather like saying that many of the commenters on this site are interchangeable…and equally unfair. FACTS are not simply pulled out of the air.

    You want facts, I’ve been putting together facts for a while now…and few people seem to be interested. For EVERY hit that I have had at my site I have slaved over a MINIMUM of one hour of research, and the majority of posts have required a straight 24 hours of intense concentration before I publish, which is the single greatest difficulty that I have had in pushing out regular posts. Most people don’t seem to be interested in facts…just their own opinion.

    I apologize for my presumption here, but I have grown rather discouraged in my search for the truth about the issue which seems to have divided us all so terribly. Threads like this, which have nothing to do with fact, put me just a hair’s-breadth away from hitting that “delete blog” button at my own site. You may believe that Greg is “talking to himself,” but I most certainly am…and I just don’t feel up to it anymore.

  3. Alanna

    If you let it this can almost turn into a full-time job without the full-time pay of course. There are many popular blogs out there that don’t necessarily generate the discussion but do have good traffic. I’m not sure why that happens. If your traffic is increasing monthly, and it appears as if more people are commenting on more recent threads than earlier threads then I would view that as a success.

  4. My latest post (and one of those arduously researched ones), The Merida Initiative, has had 29 HITS, not comments, since I published it the morning of the 18th (I’ve been waiting to see if it got any traction). People just aren’t interested in how they are being sold out, I guess. I don’t care if my blog is “popular,” Alanna…I just wish that people WERE actually more interested in the facts.

  5. But, seriously, thanks for caring.

  6. NotGregLetiecq

    AWCheney, you have to allow the users to generate the content as much as possible. There is room for you in the blogosphere, but in order to get others to post, you have to allow for their opinion to be part of the story you are telling. In fact, you have to encourage it and not look down on it. Otherwise, people will not participate.

    On this issue, there is more opinion out there than fact because the debate is driven by people who don’t have a lot of facts to go on, and they reject any research that is done without the preordained conclusion that immigration is bad for America.

    So you have the FAIR people and their many media outlets with their opinion backed by what the say are “facts,” and a lot of people with gut reactions based on human experience, and then there are the social scientists and demographers who try to get a word in edgewise but few are interested in the mainstream media. That’s why blogs have got to lead the way.

  7. Dolph


    Your blog is very well researched. I think though your tlow raffic is because most people want to do a drive-by rather than stick around and invest the time it takes to dive deeply into a subject. A lot also has to with interest.

    I enjoyed your black water piece. I wish you would do some ‘chapters’ on the history of immigration in this county going back to the early 1800s to the present. I think much of what people think they know about it is just glamorized ‘what we think we want to know.’ I would also be interested in hearing about your memories of being an immigrant as a young child….first hand account, no facts, just childhood impressions.

    Just my 2 cents–Dolph

  8. Dolph, if I got into my memories of being “an immigrant as a young child” I’d be accused of self-aggrandizement, and very possibly lying. The problem is, my parents did EVERYTHING the right way before coming here legally (learning the language, learning a skill before coming, getting a sponsor, etc.), and they did not come from families with money, and they came here from a war-ravaged country. People really aren’t interested in hearing about THAT either.

  9. “…but in order to get others to post, you have to allow for their opinion to be part of the story you are telling. In fact, you have to encourage it and not look down on it.”

    NO comments are looked down upon, but I happen to be one of the few blogs that actually has rules of decorum. Just because I won’t allow a “flame war” to break out on my blog, or allow someone to PERPETUALLY break the rules, doesn’t mean that I look down on any comments. My husband already criticized me for allowing the ONE person that has been banned to get away with violations as long as I did.

    Perhaps the problem is that our society has become a place where rules have become meaningless because they are enforced, and more often NOT enforced, arbitrarily. The attitude seems to be, “As long as you can get away with it…GO FOR IT!” Well, that’s NOT the attitude with which I grew up, and it’s not the example that I would want to set for my children, or anybody else’s!

  10. TH

    I think that it is not about self-aggrandizement but about documenting the immigrant experience. I think the problem we have is that we just hear the “good’ stories and not what it take to immigrate successfully. Your parents came here legally but I am pretty sure that despite doing everything the right way not everything was easy. First immigrants with the right skills tend to assimilate faster. I would like to hear about your experience with language. You said you learn English quickly. How about your parents speaking German between themselves? Did they forget everything about the old country? Did they keep some traditions? Did they keep some connections? Dis they travel back? etc.
    I think that most people simplify the immigration process but I am pretty sure that it was a journey for your parents. Even people like Von Braun who came from Germany with great skills had problems breaking through the business. We hear about his contributions to space engineering but for a while they couldn’t get any contracts.

  11. No, it wasn’t easy for them…but nothing worthwhile ever is, nor is it meant to be. Perhaps THAT is why they appreciated this country more than the illegal immigrants of today! I seriously doubt that anyone is actually interested in the truth if it flies in the face of their already formulated opinion.

    Von Braun’s difficulties largely stemmed from his history as a NAZI who had a great deal to do with the German rocket program that successfully decimated large areas in England, particularly London. Given that some German industrialists wound up on trial for war crimes after the war for doing exactly what Von Braun (and other scientists who had been expatriated to the U.S. after the war) had done, is it really surprising that he (and they) had problems?

    Both my parents spoke German at home unless we had English-speaking guests, which was often, and I have remained bi-lingual to this day. Also, if my parents had less difficulty assimilating than the illegal immigrants, and their children, of today it has far more to do with the fact that they didn’t come to this country with the idea that it owed them anything (despite the fact that their city, Bremen, was primarily destroyed by American, daylight bombing raids)…and they prepared accordingly. In general, the attitudes and expectations exhibited by those who come to this country legally v. those who enter illegally (regardless if they eventually receive dispensations, such as amnesty) are as different as night and day. THAT is not something which is never considered in the “immigration” debate, and THAT is why so many actual immigrants resent the use of the word “immigrant” to describe anyone who comes to this country illegally. They are not immigrants…they are illegal aliens.

  12. Correction: …which is EVER considered…

  13. /\/\3|)iç 64


    As much as I hate to post on this blog, I will have to agree with you. I just cruised over today for the first time since I can remember when. I saw your post about your blog. I do not blog as much as I use to. I have a couple I post to frequently, but i have cut way back.

    I believe that when we put consequences for one’s actions back into play, we will solve a great deal of problems that we face. I know this is not a popular point to make here, but ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. When one rule is overlooked, how easy is it to allow another to be overlooked. Before you know it, you have the entire law overlooked.

    One of the most important things we can do as a nation is stand up for America and remove the ILLEGAL aliens that are not helping the progress of America. Sure they pick a few crops, but this will be done by Americans once they are cut off of welfare.

    We have to take away the incentives to be here and people will self deport. Have consequences for their actions come into play IMMEDIATELY and you will see a different America.

    I am all for LEGAL immigration. Amnesty is rewarding bad behavior and will not solve the problem we have. This was done in the 80’s and look what it got us.

    I have purused a couple of threads here and it seems to me that many here are more worried about what the dark screen and Greg are doing. This is one of the reasons I left this blog. I encourged others to move on past what he is doing and look for solid solutions to the problems we all face with ILLEGAL aliens. I see that has not changed one bit. Someone types they believe monticup is Greg and next thing you know, Greg has many “voices” in his head. I do not personally know Greg. I can say this, many of you look to call people out instaed of trying to provide solutions. I appreciated what Robb Pearson had to say:

    All in all, my post was a desire to reach out to him and invite him to embrace a more creative, compassionate, merciful, and graceful way of engaging the “immigration issue” and the immigrating people who have been politically objectified as a result of it, and to consider being part of the incredible vision of being part of building a “State of Oneness” where common humanity is the foundation, and (as I’ve stated before) where compassion, mercy, and grace FOR ALL are the sole rule of law.

    When it comes to folks like Greg Letiecq — whom many might despise or consider an enemy — we have choices: (1) villify him, or (2) love him (an “enemy”) by inviting him to more ethical alternatives to the course he has chosen where this “issue” is concerned.

    The choice is ours. We’ll either be combative, or be peacemakers. We’ll either ridicule Greg Letiecq, or see him as we wish him to see others: as human. We’ll either behave toward him the way we wish he would behave toward us, or we won’t.

    At the end of the day, it’s about stepping it up. Not for the sake of competition, but for the sake of setting an example and seeking the better way.

    And I, for one, beleive we can do that. And successfully.

    That is the type of person I would hope folks on this blog and the other would strive to be.

  14. /\/\3|)iç 64

    LOL I am in moderation

  15. TH

    Thanks AWCheney for sharing that story with us!

  16. Dolph

    I would imagine that the immigrants coming from East Germany would have had a far different experience than those coming from West Germany. The family I knew had escaped from East Germany with a year old infant in their arms. They had to dodge a few bullets and swim in a river to escape. I doubt they were very prepared. They were lucky to be alive.
    I don’t know how they eventually got to America. I guess they hit an emabassy somewhere in Europe and applied for political assylum.

    AWC, How long did your parents plan in advance? I remember some stories from my parents about the war. My father served as a military interpreter during part of the war. They said many of the young German POWs held at Newport News tried to stay in the United States. I don’t know what the outcome of that was. I believe they were sent back after the war.

    I think different immigrant experiences happen at different times. Not everyone has the same opportunities. I try to judge based on behavior.

  17. Leila

    AW Cheney, it was very interesting hearing about your parents. But it worried me when you said your parents did “EVERYTHING right” before coming, and gave your list, because it would seem to imply that the country’s greatest wave of immigrants (in the 19th century and early 20th century) must have done something wrong if millions came without any knowledge of English or as very basic laborers without special skills. I am not disputing for a second your pride in your parents, it’s laudable, but I don’t believe that the vast majority of immigrants to this country were any less honorable despite the fact they did nothing like what your parents did in advance preparation. I also don’t think other post-World War II immigrants, such as those who came straight from the camps, were any less honorable if they arrived without English skills. I guess I don’t see how there is only one “right way.” I really do believe in Emma Lazarus.

    In addition, you seem to define illegal aliens in terms of entering illegally. But nearly 45 percent (Pew) of people who are not currently in legal immigration status did enter legally. What they haven’t done is stayed legally once their work, student, or visitor’s visa expired or their applications for asylum or similar status were turned down, etc. etc.

    Finally, about your blog. I think it is great how you do lots of research on your posts. Citation is something I always appreciate. However I am kind of old-fashioned about the Net. Ever since I started being in Net communities (originally Usenet) in 1993, I have really supported having the freest communication possible. Your blog doesn’t just have a general rule of civility, an honor system for adults, you have very elaborate rules, as if for children. You also appear to require the language of children. That is 100 percent your right, it’s your blog, but it is also very much a schoolmarm-with-ruler-in-hand approach. I think a slightly looser approach, ala Anti, may be more welcoming, but I may be totally wrong. I would also always put your URL out there more! 🙂

    I hope you continue the blog and continue to post here as well.

  18. Alanna

    Welcome Back Medic.

    I’m not sure why you ended up in moderation. I did a little research and noticed that you had not posted since April 29th but neither your screen name or ipaddress had changed so I don’t have an explanation. Just know that it was not intentional.

  19. Well, Leila, from what I’ve seen it is generally children who are unable to refrain from using profanity or attacking each other just because they happen to think differently. Oh, that’s right…it happens on the blogs all the time. Well, it’s not going to happen on any blog that I have. I’ll delete the blog first!

    I’m surprised that you believe that an intelligent adult is incapable of rising above that juvenile behavior. If I remember correctly, you never indulged in it yourself, even when you got passionate and angered others who often DID engage in juvenile behavior. I’m rather surprised that you support that.

  20. TH

    I am not surprised that Medic is in moderation. I think he/she should be. I have read his/her sexist comments in the other blog(women on horses for example) but the worst one was about not feeling bad about hurting Hispanic kids in the supermarket just because they were not careful for his standards. It is not the Medic we knew here, It seems that once he/she went to the other side, he. she showed her/his right colors (very dark colors)

  21. TH

    Here is what Medic wrote about the police officers in the other blog:
    “2 of these officers found their way through the townhouse section of Westgate a few months ago. Good looking horses and the animals weren’t bad either.”
    He/she even admitted that what he/she wrote was OK:
    “HMMMMM I typed that out didn’t I. Sometimes my fingers get a mind of their own, maybe I can get special assistance because of it, oh wait I am not ILLEGAL so I can’t qualify for any help what so ever.”

  22. Leila

    AW Cheney, I guess I didn’t express myself clearly enough. It is interesting, though, that that was the only part of the comment you chose to respond to.

    Sorry if the following is long.

    In the comment above I stated my support for *encouraging* civility on blogs ala Anti’s provisions. That is absolutely true.

    I try to keep things on an adult level myself, as you noted. I would find it annoying and distracting if people’s posts were riddled with profanity. I also object to profanity and vulgar insults directed at an individual, as in you *&^%ing so and so. However if someone wanted to call an argument BS, for example, or say WTF, I wouldn’t care. If I recall correctly you even ban abbreviations or euphemisms for adult language. (Yes adult. Juveniles didn’t invent the profanities in English, almost all of which date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are some of our oldest words, before English was transformed by Norman French). I really love English by the way. In truth, I wince a lot more about other common butcherings of the language than about profanity. If Anti were MY blog, I would put people in moderation for, among other things, adding apostrophes to plurals like “illegal’s” or “Latino’s” until they stopped the madness!!! Ok…kidding…..sort of.

    To go further, I would not have a problem if someone used a profanity (or an obvious disguised one) for select emphasis from time to time.
    It just doesn’t trouble me. Occasional use to punctuate something or to be ribaldly colloquial doesn’t worry me. I had a boss who liked on occasion to use the military obscenity “clusterf*&^.” It’s a very expressive, very cogent term for particular situations. It is cousin to another military profanity, SNAFU, which is equally vulgar although clusterf*&^ has some really intriguing allusions to officer insignia going for it. It didn’t bother me when he used it. We were all adults at work and nobody’s grandmother or kid was present.

    The issue of language that disturbs me the most (and frankly I can’t remember if on BVBL you bothered to call anyone out on this or not) is language that dehumanizes people. The frequent references to illegal immigrants “breeding,” that kind of thing. Every reference to human beings as cockroaches, etc. etc. is where I draw the line. But, like the blog mistresses here, I wouldn’t censor them, I would call them out and allow the comment to remain so that people could see the naked bigotry.

    All this only came up because you addressed the issue of traffic on your blog. I visited your blog virtually the day it started, very curious to see what you were going to do. I noted your very elaborate rules section, complete with footnotes. I thought it spoke volumes about other of your intentions as blog mistress and gave an impression, perhaps unfairly, that you would be quite the policeman for everything, not just profanity. At the same time that your rules were so detailed as to be footnoted, in other ways they were also unusually sweeping and open-ended. However, I kept my opinions to myself and only brought them up now because you mentioned your frustrations with your lack of traffic.

    You know I still say you should get your URL out there more. Unfortunately not everyone knows that when a blog commenter’s name is underlined, the way yours is, that it means it is a link to a Web site.

  23. Leila, I told everyone from the outset precisely what kind of environment I was going to provide, and I’ve kept my word. What I see in your comment is very much like the prevalent attitude in society today…enforce the rules arbitrarily and/or selectively. People are treating the law the same way. Yes, I have rules…but nothing that a person of remote intelligence could not follow. People break the rules (and laws) because nobody seems to care…it so happens that I do.

  24. Leila

    AWC, You are a little confusing here. Where exactly have I said anything about your not warning people? I remember you warning people on BVBL when you first hatched the idea of a blog. You were absolutely explicit and like I said, I visited early and saw your rules. I have also already said it was absolutely your right. It’s your blog. Please show where I have suggested otherwise.

    Secondly, where have I advocated any selective or arbitrary enforcement on your part of your rules? It’s your blog, your rules. Trust me, I don’t expect you to do anything but enforce them nor have I advocated that. The rules are something you devised. I was only disagreeing with the nature of them, not whether or not you had the right to devise them, enforce them, gold plate them, or anything else. I find it highly doubtful that I could not follow your rules, should I have chosen to do so. Although I would disagree that intelligence, remote or otherwise, comes into play much in rule following. Some of the most intelligent people I know of aren’t much when it comes to rule following, while some of the dullest people are stand outs. Go figure.

    I don’t know what to make of the fact that you appear to need to tie a discussion of rules on a bleedin’ Net blog to laws in society. I think it’s both a stretch and a cheap shot considering how polite my discourse has been with you, but that’s fine. In truth though, selective enforcement of rules/laws is at the soul of the American legal system. It’s called prosecutorial discretion among other things. It’s also enshrined in our system of plea bargaining, in day to day police work, etc. In addition, American states and local jurisdictions have a mass of laws on their books that would be either unenforceable in any practical sense or are just plain out of step with reality. However since your blog is entirely your own baby, you can model yourself on legal reality or be strict in some kind of ideal form. Your choice, and I never said otherwise. Show me where I did.

    It’s good that you care so deeply about your own rules since why go to all the trouble to devise rules (with footnotes!) if you wouldn’t care? That would be kind of silly.

    I have already complimented you on the careful work you do on your blog. We just have a disagreement about Net fora, but not ONCE have I suggested that it wasn’t your party to invite or tolerate whom you wish. It’s a blog for pity’s sake. If I started a blog, I might have other sorts of rules. For example, I might claim the right to correct all typos and all the inveterate typo-making people out there could bitch about me all they wanted, but in the end they would fall victim to my virtual red pencil. So exciting. 🙂 As they used to say in a decade you may or may not remember, “different strokes…”

  25. I just published another post which might be of interest…”The City of Lost Girls: Femicide in Latin America.” Everything in it is highly researched and the facts are properly attributed. What I found was an overwhelming number of examples of to what a culture based upon the arbitrary enforcement of law can lead us.

  26. Elena

    I find it interesting that you believe Robb Pearson is one we should all emulate. I would agree with you. What are your thoughts on his complete turn around regarding illegal immigration and the villification of hispanics?

  27. /\/\3|)iç 64


    First off, you can not OBVIOUSLY recognize sarcasm. Without placing a tongue in cheek next to it, I guess it can be misunderstood. No one else saw it for anymore than it was, sarcasm.


    You shouldn’t find it interesting at all Elena. If you were to meet me in person, as a few on this and the other blog have, you would realize I am not a mean spirited person. I am passionate about the ILLEGAL alien issue, because it had directly affected my life when my family was overseas and I was here. We were trying to do it the right way and it took time. I just feel that EVERYONE should do it the right way and no one gets a free pass. The free pass will only encourage more to try the same. This includes all that overstay visas and such. I do not see any difference in ILLEGAL whether it is overstaying a visa or sneaking across the border. Either way, we can not absorb all of these people into our society. This is why we have quotas on visas. We do not have the infrastructure in place to take all of the ILLEGAL aliens at once.

    I am not sure what to think of Greg. Maybe he has seen something that we may never know about. Just the same, I do not think anyone should be run down because of their beliefs or what they post as freedom of speech.

  28. /\/\3|)iç 64


    BTW, I am male so he/she won’t be needed. (c:

  29. TH

    I am a male too and I consider your comments charged with a lot of sexism and not sarcasm. The other side allow you to be part of that “old boy group” that can make jokes about women without thinking. I won’t use the the he/she with you that would be terribly bad for a man so secure of himself that needs to put women down to affirm his opinions.

  30. Elena

    I also have to say Medic that your comments were extremely offensive. I would expect more from someone who espouses that you are not a mean spririted person.

  31. Elena

    On another note Medic,
    I agree that we should have a system of fairness, and it isn’t fair. People are waiting decades to come into this country and this is just plain crazy.

  32. /\/\3|)iç 64


    Get over yourself. It was a joke, and it was in bad taste. I am sure you have NEVER said anything at ANY moment that was in bad taste. Get off your high horse and get over it.


    I am not mean spirited, but like I am sure you have in the past, said some things that I am not particularly proud of. This could be one of those moments. SHHEESSHH!!

  33. /\/\3|)iç 64

    I do not think waiting decades if you have nothing to offer the country is too long at all. If you can offer something that enhances the country, then you should be here right away. If you are coming here to pick lettuce, then we do not need you. We have enough people on welfare that can do that job. Once people get hungry enough, they will do ANYTHING to be able to eat. As long as we have a welfare state in place, there are no consequences for you to stay on it. The consequence should be, you are entitled to this assistance for a period of 5 years max. After your 5 years have been used up, you no longer qualify for assistance. IMHO, it would be a good idea to “bank” that five years in case you need it in an emergency. There would be consequences for your actions of trying to stay on welfare and you will be forced to look for a way to support yourself instead of me doing it through taxes. taxes that are being raised continuously by the democrats.

  34. Elena

    Foot in mouth explanation accepted 🙂

    What make a person worthwhile to a society Medic? When my greatgrandparents came here, through Ellis Island, all they had was their desire to work hard and make a life for their family. My great grandfather was a beer brewer, not necessarily a “skilled” man by most standards.

    So, are you suggesting that we require single moms, which I believe are the majority of welfare recipients, to pick lettuce? We have a welfare to work program, but what is suppose to be happening is job training and education, so that people can GAIN skills to be in the workforce and out of welfare. Oh, and as far as I can tell, our taxes were raised by REPUBLICANS in PWC, and to pay for what, an almost 7 MILLION dollar program that is a complete waste of my money.

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