The Washington Post now reports on the higher than expected enrollment of ESOL students in Prince William County Schools but refuses to lay blame for the debacle on anyone in particular.

School officials said that it’s not unusual to miss enrollment projections but that the under-projection in ESOL is unusually large — and potentially costly. If school officials had had better estimates, the information would have been part of their budget request to county supervisors, who base the county tax rate partly on the school system’s needs.

And now, contrary to BVBL’s claims that ‘PWC’s greatest fiscal savings will come from not having to educate ESOL students at a 50% greater cost than regular students’, we instead learn there has been NO significant financial offset to this failed experiment which instead has caused us to underestimate the school’s budget causing a rather unprecedented $1.6 million shortfall.

We should be asking ourselves, what was the point? We have spent millions of dollars without being able to account for any savings. And now, in all probability we will witness the legalization of a majority of these individuals with the end result being that Prince William County will have done ourselves more harm than good.

Additionally what we have learned:

  • underestimating the ESOL enrollment for 529 students equates to a $1.6 million shortfall but using Stewart/Stirrup’s Fuzzy Math not educating 700 students would have saved us $7 million
  • educating an ESOL student costs $2880, a far cry from the 50% that BVBL suggests
  • there’s most likely a constant interchange of students between Counties
  • any increases in ESOL enrollment in surrounding Counties appears to be part of an overall trend in higher general enrollment

35 Thoughts to “MSM Reports on PWC ESOL Enrollment”

  1. Moon-howler

    Crawling out of a ditch, eyes blackened, ears cauliflowered, cheek busted up, splitting teeth, ribs crushed, arm hanging loose in the socket….he will still come out swinging and declaring himself and his cause a winner. Chief Forked-Tongue is amazing and once again, has not disappointed me. Take but a short trip to the dark side… see for yourself.

  2. KathyZ

    Just as Alanna pointed out, contrast his most recent post with one he wrote at the end of September

    He desperately tries to figure out how he can pass it off as a significant cost to Alexandria but now has to admit there’s only 279 less students in PWC. Basically, he’s screwed but he keeps on swinging.

  3. NotGregLetiecq

    Well, the 99 percent of the county who is not a Gospel Greg clone already knew he and Corey Steart and John Stirrup were liars. But now that it’s indesputable even for the the 8 or so remaining members of Help Save Manassas, I’d really like to know how they feel about being so utterly deceived and taken advantage of.




    Any comment?

  4. Junkyard dog

    Obviously some people don’t mind being lied to, especially if they are part of the lie.

    When you are obssessed, it is easy to not only believe the lies but also to perpetuate the lies.

    You left off a few remaining kool aid drinkers.

  5. Rick Bentley

    Keep publicizing the fact that each time some illegal alien brings their kids to a county the taxpayers are expected to pay something like 3-10 grand a pop to teach English to these kids so their parents can keep stealing our jobs and depressing American wages.

    Meanwhile I will sit and wait for the American taxpayer to get a handle on how much of the Housing/Banking meltdown has to do with homeloans to illegal aliens and their proxies – because some significant chunk of it does.

    When people really get a handle on what is going on here, there will be hell to pay.

  6. TH

    The issue here Rick is that you have kept telling us that you were willing to pay for the resolution because illegal aliens were leaving. Are you still happy?

  7. NotGregLetiecq

    The old lies and distortions are exposed, and so new ones take their place until they too are disproven.

    That’s how we ended up occupying Iraq to spread “freedom and democracy.”. Because all the reasons they originally gave us had been disproven.

    It’s impossible to predict the next “reason” for the Duecaster Disaster in Prince William County. But we can rest assured it won’t be the most recantly debunked lie (ESOL), or the lie before that (“crime”).

    Gee, I don’t know, maybe we can blame the global economic meltdown on the percentage of Latinos living in PWC. The clones fell for all the other lies, so it’s worth a try.

    Problem is: I don’t see Caddigan falling for it. I don’t see Jenkins, Nohe, Principi, or May falling for it. I don’t even think Covington will fall for it. There will certainly not be an idiot majority in Congress. So who is this next round of lies and child’s play logic going to fool? Jackson Miller, John Stirrup, and Corey Stewart? Probably. Jeff Frederick? Most certainly. As long as it’s false and hateful, count Jeff in.

  8. BVBL Reports

    NotFrankPrincipi said on 13 Oct 2008 at 11:43 am:

    There’s the base variable costs for students which runs anywhere between 6-10k depending on the grade their in and whether they need any mandated services. Half of that gets picked up by the state. Then there’s the ESOL cost per student, which runs about $3,100, and all that seems to fall on the county.

    700 * ($10,000/2 + 3,100 ) = 9.2 million in variable costs alone, all borne by county taxpayers.

    Compare that with a TEN YEAR cost estimate of the Rule of law resolution at $11 million.

    Then there are capital costs, since ESOL programs often require dedicated facilities. Capitalized costs for one classroom per grade level at an elementary school ramp up pretty quickly. Just avoiding the construction costs of 2 elementary schools (what it would take to accommodate another 700 students) is a savings of over $40 million.

    So apples-to-apples, in ten years county taxpayers could save $66 million, and spend $11 million in order to achieve those savings.

    So much for this “truth” the illegal alien apologists keep trying to cling to.

  9. PWC Resident

    It’s laughable, turning a $1.6 million dollar school budget shortfall into a $66 million savings?

  10. Censored bybvbl

    What am I missing about the math above? Why does 700 x $8100 = 9.2 million? And why are we assuming those ESOL students are here illegally since we have no data to prove their stattus one way or the other?

  11. Censored bybvbl

    too many “t”s in status

  12. Marie

    Censored, I have the same two questions. Was I asleep in math class or something?

  13. Princess Billy-Bob

    NotFrankPrincipi is so full of crap! Where did he pull his information from?
    ESOL averages about $2880 more than ordinary services. No facilities are needed. They are mainstreamed in with the other kids.

    NFP has no way to know who is legal and who is not. There are about 1003 additional students in the county this year. There are about 271 fewer ESOL kids from last year.
    700 is not = to 271. There is no way to make it equal.

    Now just for fun, lets pretend that it costs $3000 more to an ESOL than a regular ed kid. 3000 x 271 = $813,000. Btw, the state and feds reimburse some for ESOL services. Of course the regular ed students were filled by other kids. We can’t assume none of them receive other services.

    You can try to spin this any way you want, but it isn’t going to work. NFP still ends up being full of crap and looking like he just drank the dark prince’s kool aid and took the fuzzy math course.

  14. james

    who is “gospel Greg” ?

  15. SecondAlamo

    Hey folks, $3000 additional per ESOL student times the total of 13,130 students equals a whopping $39 million dollars. That plus the normal costs of educating a student. Now with all the complaints about the costs of the Resolution I’d think this would grab your attention, but then I guess not since it wouldn’t help your cause. These are undisputed facts of the additional cost of immigration whether legal or illegal, so open those pocket books and give happily. How much of that $39 million do you think they are returning to the county tax payers in terms of enhancements to the quality of life?

  16. Elena

    So Second Alamo,

    You said:
    “These are undisputed facts of the additional cost of immigration whether legal or illegal, so open those pocket books and give happily. How much of that $39 million do you think they are returning to the county tax payers in terms of enhancements to the quality of life?”

    You ARE against immigration, legal and illegal? Glad you finally came out of the closet! As someone whose family is NOT native american, unlike you, I can relate to my ancestors coming to this country NOT knowing English.

  17. Elena

    Welome James,
    You asked “who is gospel Greg”, a picture speaks a thousand words, or better yet, a video!

  18. SecondAlamo


    Man you can put words in people’s mouthes. I’m making the point that it is a huge expense to educate people who don’t speak English. Everyone was making little of the cost consequences, and I just wanted to make a factual statement about those costs. Give me a break, if immigrants payed for the additional costs I’d have no problem, but I’m tired of footing the bill for people who in many cases are lowering our standard of living while we dote on them hand and foot. I’ve told you before, for me it’s all about the quality of life. If you want to come to this country and pay your own way, no problem, but don’t tell me it’s my financial responsibility to pay your bills. They should at least be obligated to go through the legal process of becoming citizens. Hell for all I know they’ll go back to their home countries and get big salaries teaching English on our dime!

  19. Moon-howler

    SA,It did sound like you had an issue with immigrants. ESOL has been around for years and years. It is an investment. If people do go home and speak English and teach others, who is the winner there.

    There honestly needs to be some global thinking here. Many kids come to the USA on student visas and live with aunts and uncles, away from their parents for many years, just to get an education. Education cannot be viewed as a single yearly pay-off. It is almost an abstraction. The child educated today can go many places. The child can be
    Isoroku Yamamoto or a gift to the world. We have to take that chance.

    Not all ESOL students are children of illegal immigrants. How do you ever sort this out? How do you tell? Would you want them to grow up ignorant even if you found out they were?

  20. DB

    I’m a teacher and I cannot understand or fathom the costs for ESOL education. ESOL teacher student ratios are 1:59 in this state. Most ESOL services are push-in (we follow teacher lessons/curriculum). The majority of ESOL teachers have ESOL endorsements. That means that they (the teachers) cost THE SAME as regular teachers. Their endorsements are the same that any regular teacher has. Endorsements mean a teacher has extra training that is reflected on their license but does not end up as a pay raise as they are not an increase in education. ESOL teachers do NOT have seperate learning materials, they DO NOT have seperate classrooms, and they have less time with students than the regular ed teacher. Where does the money go? WIDA or SELP?

  21. DiversityGal

    The salary of each ESOL teacher, I imagine, would come out of ESOL funding (it should be mentioned that ESOL teachers, at least on the elementary level, often work in an inclusion model for part of the time, and assist many students in the class that need help). They may have the original training, but have to a special endorsement for their special position. It could be that while regular education teachers are paid for by a particular school, ESOL teachers are paid for out of a different budget (just like there is a different budget for school psychologists and social workers).

    Also, ESOL testing materials most likely come out of ESOL funding. Additionally, some of that funding might be used for standard materials that may help not only ESOL students, but all students at the school. You should probably call the the head of ESOL in a local school system if you want a truly definitive answer on this, though.

  22. Elena

    Second Alamo,
    How many ESOL children do you know, personally, I mean, children who strive to do well and work hard? I knew many many ESOL children, working as a counselor in an extremely diverse school in Fairfax, and the majority of children, were wonderful, hard working, lovely people and having known them, MY life, was enriched.

  23. Robb Pearson

    Censored bybvbl, you stated:

    And why are we assuming those ESOL students are here illegally since we have no data to prove their stattus one way or the other?

    Censored, the single most important word in your question: assumption.

    Without corroborating data and substantiating facts, any claims — general or otherwise — that ESOL students are undocumented residents are nothing but assumption, supposition, and opinion.

    And that speaks to your central question as to why certain people are making these assumptions: to continually inflame the “immigration issue”, which requires racial/ethnic bigotry for oxygen, in order to advance self-serving political or personal agendas.

    How does that tie into ESOL? Easy. Most ESOL students in PWC speak Spanish as their native language and are of Hispanic/Latino heritage. And it has recently become abundantly clear that the “anti illegal immigration” movement in PWC — championed by the likes of BVBL and incubated by the BOCS — is nothing more than a facade for racism, particularly the brand that disparages Latinos/Hispanics.

    The ultimate truth here: it’s never been about the “immigration issue”. It’s always been about self-advancement. For the Corey Stewarts of the world it’s about political advancement. For the Greg Letiecqs of the world it’s nothing more than about being noticed.

    And for them, the “immigration issue” and the racism it requires is simply a means to an end.

  24. NotGregLetiecq

    I think the name “Not Frank Principi” is funny. Some anti-immigrant clone is upset that the Immigration Resolution turned out to be really bad policy? Frank Principi is the last person he should blame! Or, is he upset that the Immigration Resolution was castrated in April? Principi was only one of eight Supervisors who voted for the policy change. It was unanimous.

    If all you’ve got is lies and racism, the guy didn’t have to make up another moniker. He could have just posted as GospelGregClone#8.

  25. NotGregLetiecq

    To be against ESL classes, you have to be against cultural and ethnic diversity. If you are against cultural and ethnic diversity, Virginia is no longer the place for you. Check out Utah.

  26. SecondAlamo


    I’m sure the children were great, and that’s not my problem, but there is only so much tax money available for education and money spent on ESOL is money that can’t be used on other programs that benefit ALL students not just those of immigrants. Isn’t that the complaint everyone here voiced about the cost of the Resolution? Everyone went on and on about what the money could have been used for. My complaint is that we are constantly eroding the support of our own citizens when we spend money on those who aren’t. If our education system was flush with cash, then why not, but it’s my impression that it isn’t.

  27. Rick Bentley

    “The issue here Rick is that you have kept telling us that you were willing to pay for the resolution because illegal aliens were leaving. Are you still happy?”

    Mos def. I can’t speak to the whole County but my own neighborhood is much more liveable and safe.

    But I am still angry about the whole phenomenon and demand more from my government.

  28. Elena

    ESOL qualify AS our OWN children Second Alamo. Although some may be foreign born, as far as I can tell, we ARE a country of immigrants, still, and although I am sure you don’t mean to sound ignorant, you do. I don’t know how else to say it so I apologize in advance if I offended you. Many ESOL children are born here but were raised in a home where their parents spoke another language, THEY ARE American, as American as MY children. You are missing the benefits of having a diverse school, and having experienced it first hand, it was an incredible experience, not just for the staff, but for ALL the children. One learns so much about the world around them and they never have to leave their school to experience other cultures. It’s a good thing, Second Alamo, not a bad thing 🙂

  29. Moon-howler

    The reality is that a given school belongs as much to Juan as it does to Abdul as it does to Tommy. An ESOL student is as entitled to an education as any mainstream kid.

    We aren’t letting ‘those kids’ into our kids’ school. It is as much their school as any one else’s. That is just how it works. It is only in our minds that the ownership isn’t equal.

    Moving education from the neighborhood level and to a somewhat abstract setting, it is an investment in our country. Children who learn and become educated generally make better citizens. They are self sufficient and contribute back to the community. This concept is why education in the USA has generally been free and has been part of the American dream, dating back to colonial days. Those who could read and write were seen as a national endowment.

  30. Elena

    Excellent post Moon-Howler!

  31. BooHoo

    It’s your math that is fuzzy. In order to determine the ture cost-avoidance, you need to to take the cost of educating a student, plus the uplifted cost of ESOL on top of this. These two costs would be saved if the student was no longer enrolled in the PWCPS. If they, or their parents are in the country illegally, and they leave PWC for fear of possible deportation, then the total cost of educating them is saved.

  32. Moon-howler

    BooHoo, So let me see if I understand you correctly. You want the parents of the children scared of being deported so they are leave the county? What if the children are American? Do you want to live in a country where we can run off people YOU or those like YOU feel should not be here, based on assumption rather than fact? I do not.

    You do understand the flow on this? There is a house. The house is either occupied or unoccupied. If it is occupied, it probably has school age children in it who will go to the neighborhood school. Some child, from that house, will be costing the county about 10k per year, the per pupil spending allowance.

    If the child is limited English proficient, then that child might receive ESOL services. We still don’t know if that child is an American citizen or the child of illegal immigrants, now do we? Unless the house is vacant, which, is NOT a good thing, there will probably be someone going to school. Math Lesson over. Please tell me you get it.

  33. Elena

    So, you seem more than happy to take joy in the drop in ESOL, by that measure, do you also take joy in the vacant or forclosed home they might have left behind? Can’t take credit for one and not the other the way I see it.

  34. Moon-howler

    I just don’t see all the money saved with an increased enrollment of over a thousand and only 270 something fewer esol students than this time last year, rather than the 700 plus all the black velveteens were doing the war dance over.

    It was that money that was going to SAVE the county. {{{rolling eyes}}}

    Every foreclosed, vacant house lowers everyone’s property value. The closer you are to that house, the more your own property is affected. I don’t think anyone wants to be cheering about these houses other than the incredibly stupid or those who own nothing.

  35. BooHoo

    You read way too much into my comment. I am simply presenting mathmatical facts. I don’t want any american citizen or any child who has a legal right to reside in the county run off. I am not screaming about “anchor babies”. Until the 14th ammendment is changed to reflect more practical terms regarding the children of illegal aliens, the law is the law. I do want the thousands of illegal aliens who are gang members, commit crimes against the community, or otherwise demonstrate a lack of appreciation for the opportunity to pursue the american dream to be arrested and deported.

    My comment was if you want to arrive at the true cost/savings, you need to make sure that you have captured the appropriate elements that make up the costs, before you can judge whether or not there has been any cost-savings realized by the PWCS.

    It seems to me that everyone here is just looking for a fight, or a chance to jump all over someone who refuses to sing in harmony with the amen chorus you all have set up here.

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