A Place for Civil Debate: A Blog for Grown Ups
An educated population serves our country. The more a population is educated the less it will rely on government to supply basic needs.
I have always been in favor of this approach. And I think now that the anti-immigrant (and other reasons to be filled with hatred) political strategy has failed, pragmatism and common sense will win out in Washington.
We can no longer afford to be divided if we are to succeed as a nation.
If you watch the video embedded on the page Alanna links to, I don’t see how you can look at all that potential and say, “Nah, let’s shoot ourselves in the foot because a powerful lobbying firm in Washington doesn’t like immigrants with darker skin.”
It was shameful how Congress cowered before FAIR and Numbers USA the last time this came up. I hope it doesn’t happen again. I hope and expect that a lot of the support for the Dream Act will come from Virginia, including my new Congressman Gerry Connolly, and my our Senator Mark Warner. We need to work on our senior Senator Jim Webb. I think he’s been on both sides of the fence on issues like these.
But how about switching out that anti-immigrant bigot Virgil Goode for Tom Periello? Woooo-hoooooooo! Passing the Dream Act will be fun, even if some people cower, there won’t be enough of them.
Numbers USA, FAIR, Gospel Greg, prepare to lose.
It may not be quite that easy, NGL. There are people in this country who reject the idea that Obama is an American citizen. There are millions of people who are very very upset over the fact that a non-white person is going to be President. They are willing to believe anything, now matter how fallacious, as long as it fuels their anger and makes them feel less powerless. All they need is someone to tell them where to direct their anger. And with the economy in dire straits, all it takes is a few prominant Republicans to yell fire in a crowded room. Next thing you know, phone calls and emails galore are bombarding Congress.
Dream Act might very well pass with the new majority the Democrats have. But it won’t be easy.
ShellyB, yes, but those millions got outvoted.
The problem I see is that people go more activist against something than in favor of something. Just the nature of the beast, I suppose.
“cut off your nose to spite your face” comes to mind to those who refuse to see the logic in the dream act. I keep saying this, over and over, this country needs an educated tax base to contribute when the costs of supporting the baby boomers in their retirement comes to fruition. To deny smart hard working young people a chance at contributing to up to their best potential is just simply ridiculous and lacking forsight. Not only is it fiscally prudent but having successful people contributes to the overall health, fiscally and socially, of any civilized society.
Elena, I totally agree and for the same reasons.
There is just something that raises my hackles over not using human potential to its fullest also.
MH– I will have to go with a more “informed” population. Some without benefit of a formal education are on occasion far more informed!!!
Elena, that is such a great point. To support the baby boomers in their old age, we will have to have a growing and well-educated work force to power a growing economy.
If we allow short-sighted concerns about demographic breakdowns to short change our kids, we’ll also be letting down our seniors. We can’t let ignorance and hate stand in the way.
The baby boomer thing isn’t as mercenary as it sounds. 1945-1960 was the largest population explosion in US history. All those daddies coming home from the war made a lot of babies. During that time returning soldiers were exposed to education unlike in any other times. Millions were now eligible for the GI bill. Educated parents having the most kids who are all coming of age…social security age that is.
Here’s the question: Do we want them supported by an educated younger population making good salaries or….do we want them supported mostly by a younger population making minimum wage? We are talking smart math here.
Plus I like living in a society where people are educated. One gets tired of dealing with dumb asses. (not that an education is a guarantee against dumb-ass-hood)
Tennessee immigrants fight back fear, sue for rights:
Why is it always the South?
If you look back through our history, you will see that the dominant group, white people, have consistently wounded themselves in the name of white supremacy. The opposition to the dream act stands as stark testimony.
The economic self interest argument against bigotry, doesn’t seem to always have the kind of impact that most pragmatic people would hope. I suppose because the issue is really, deep down, an issue of emotion and not really dollars and cents. With that said, the foreclosure crisis in PWC has much to teach the emotionally mature moderates in the middle and we should promote formal studies to identify the way the resolution has magnified the effects of the meltdown. The impact of such studies will grow with time as the emotion fades and a more pragmatic attitude has room to emerge.
Here is another example of how mass denial can lead us to believe the craziest things:
Vote Dream Act, vote to give illegal aliens special rights to attend schools in the state of their choice, that American citizens do not have. Great idea. I stand waiting to help take a big bloody bite out of Obama if he expresses support for this.
Rick, did you bite George Bush who also supported the Dream Act?
I don’t think they will have special rights. They just won’t be automatically excluded over something beyond their control.
I loath Bush and his support for illegal aliens is the biggest reason. There are other king-sized reasons as well.
Why would a kid whose parents are not in Virginia legally get an in-state rate and a kid whose parents legally reside in Maryland won’t? The kid from Maryland has his ID tracked, the government knows where he lives, what his parents’ real income is (via trace to their real SSN number), etc. You want to give the kid whose parents are illegal a special right to get an in-state rate in whatever state his patents claim to live in.
Similarly, illegal aliens can play games about where they put their kids in elementary or high school. If you are a citizen, you have to prove residence. If you’re illegal, you are expected to produce some possibly fake documents and they wave a wand and let your kid into the school.
the dream act is for achievers, it deserves to be passed. anyone with a brain and sould know this
Rick, a person can legally reside in Maryland and still hide portions of his income from taxation. Being a legal resident of a state doesn’t guarantee honesty.
I don’t have a problem with a high school graduate who has attended Virginia schools getting financial aid or meeting residency requirements when attending a university or college in Virginia if his parents are residing here and claim no other state as their residence. If he applies to go to school in Maryland, I have no problem with his being forced to prove residency there.
I think this country can benefit more by having an educated populace that can compete in the world economy. IMO stupidity does more to harm this country than illegality does.
What an open example of bigotry “If you look back through our history, you will see that the dominant group, white people, have consistently wounded themselves in the name of white supremacy. The opposition to the dream act stands as stark testimony. ”
Way to go Mackie! And congrats to all who say nothing, your silence is deafening. For all of the KGottharts of the world who pride themselves on not tolerating bigotry, where ya at?
“Rick, a person can legally reside in Maryland and still hide portions of his income from taxation. Being a legal resident of a state doesn’t guarantee honesty.”
But if you’re an American citizen you get punished if caught. Two nations, two sets of rules.
“I don’t have a problem with a high school graduate who has attended Virginia schools getting financial aid or meeting residency requirements when attending a university or college in Virginia if his parents are residing here and claim no other state as their residence. If he applies to go to school in Maryland, I have no problem with his being forced to prove residency there. ”
So what’s the big problem with forcing a child of illegal aliens to prove residency? Via declaring independence.
Rick, declaring independence is certainly an option. How much would the paperwork cost? And what happens if the child is still seventeen or sixteen? What do children whose parents are in the military have to do if they want to attend a college in Virginia and have spent all their high school years in Virginia schools while their parents are residents of another state?
“Rick, declaring independence is certainly an option. How much would the paperwork cost?”
I don’t know – more or less than the cost of a fake ID? Not much. How much does it cost for American citizens’ kids? Do you cry for them?
“And what happens if the child is still seventeen or sixteen?”
I guess the same as for a US citizen’s kid in the same situation, barring scholorship or grant they have to go in-state or pay an out-of-state rate. Do you cry for the US citizens’ kids?
“What do children whose parents are in the military have to do if they want to attend a college in Virginia and have spent all their high school years in Virginia schools while their parents are residents of another state?”
Doesn’t that happen for US citizens’ children too?
You’re misunderstanding. Bigotry isn’t what is being promoted. The intent is to illuminate the landscape so that we can navigate correctly together.
hello, for what it’s worth, I agree with you that Mackie is way too focused on what white people do wrong, and have done wrong. It is indeed the flip side of what we saw with the anti-immigrant lobby taking over our local government, except in this case, they temporarily had enough clout to institutionalize racism as part of our county policy and police mandate.
Mackie’s problem with white people is a lonely one on this blog, and he is lonely out there in the real world. There is no danger of institutionalized racism against white people in this country.
Meanwhile, if we were to go after every person that has racist beliefs (but no impact on society), we’d have time for little else.
Mackie, the things you remind us of are true, I grant you. But you must know that it reduces your ability to be persuasive with anyone who is Caucasian and/or sensitive to remarks that seem to be directed angrily at one particular race. I have sympathy for your feelings, but I have to stand apart from you often because your anger reduces the effectiveness of speaking your mind, in my humble opinion.
The key for fighting bigotry is in the white community. This is nothing new.
Yes, it’s true mine is not a popular position. I wish I could play nice, make friends, and not rock the boat but I want to bear true witness to my point of view. People want to call themselves enlightened, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya. That’s nice but that doesn’t get us anywhere. And when it serves as a substitute, as an excuse, for substantive change, it’s time to start rocking the boat. Because real change hurts.
If you want to practice deflection, focus on my words, and call them angry, that’s your prerogative…but you can’t call them angry without a good reason. And it’s that last clause that makes all the difference. It’s unfortunate that some may be offended by my bluntness. But when it’s the same people who join FAIR, Greg Letiecq, HSM, etc. in support of a racist prerogative like 287(g) despite the opposition of people of color, should I hold my tongue for the sake of being polite? I don’t think so.
I repeat my previous question:
Considering that it’s people of color who will face the abuses brought about by 287(g), I think it’s only fair that their opinion carry the day on that issue as opposed to white people who rarely know what they’re talking about when they address racism. Shouldn’t they exercise some humility and gracefully stand aside to allow people of color to take the lead on this issue?
After all, can’t people of color be trusted to make the right decision? Can’t they be expected to have the requisite level of morality to strike a just balance between immigration enforcement and their human rights?
Mackie, and no one will see your point of view if you piss all of us off. You cannot always assume that because we do not agree, it is because we don’t understand. It might be that we don’t agree because we do not agree.
Now, let’s flip this. Tell me why on earth you think I would want any criminals running loose? Why would I want someone who was a criminal illegal alien who may or may not have given a correct name back in my community? I cannot think of a single reason. I also do not want any white or black criminals back in my community. However, they are much easier to track because of their American roots.
Pissing people off is not a way to sell them on any ideas. I have yet to see anything in the way of reason other than being called a white racist. You do understand self fulfilling prophecy don’t you?
The 287(G) program is applied to EVERY inmate who enters the Adult Detention Center. EVERY inmate is asked their residency status. So, if EVERYONE is asked, how is that abuse? What about the abuse the criminal has applied to the community at large? Are we supposed to just overlook that?
If you are in this country illegally and commit a crime, why should anyone who is here legally suffer the consequences of your presence AND your criminality? Why would anyone want a criminal, regardless of status, released back into their community?
A criminal’s illegal status gives the citizenry the opportunity to rid themselves of yet another individual who preys upon them. We have enough of our own without someone that is here illegally harming residents. That criminal has forfeited any moral, ethical and legal opportunity to be in the country.
Quit making fire where their is no smoke. Just come out of the closet and declare yourself a racist.
We’ve already covered this. Stop. Now.
If we are going to talk honestly about race and racism, it is absolutely necessary that white people develop a thick enough skin to make honest dialogue possible. The reason why is that it is always white people who are destroying other peoples’ lives through systematic racism like the resolution or systematic neglect like being in denial that 287(g) is a tool for racists. White people are overwhelmingly the perpetrators. Their behavior must be the focus of the debate. Of course, it will be painful. So what? An ocean of tears and blood passed by before they arrived at the table.
I repeat my previous question and await an answer:
Considering that it’s people of color who will face the abuses brought about by 287(g), I think it’s only fair that their opinion carry the day on that issue as opposed to white people who rarely know what they’re talking about when they address racism. Shouldn’t white people exercise some humility and gracefully stand aside to allow people of color to take the lead on this issue?
Call it like I see it.
Here’s an example of how the white-created and white-controlled system ruins the lives of people of color. There’s thousands and thousands more where this came from. Private prison companies actually lobby for stiff mandatory sentences…and we still call it the justice system.
This is the kind of thing that can happen to any young hispanic or black at any time without warning. Being arrested for any pretense so that the racist officer can check your immigration status at the ADC gives you a criminal record. Just expunging each arrest from your record will cost you hundreds of dollars. But don’t hold your breath waiting for white people to recognize the injustice. They’re busy nursing their wounded pride over being told they’re in denial.
The only time a mother can celebrate her son being sent to prison for 19 years is when it could have been for life.
When black or hispanic young men group together, as young men have done since the beginning of time, it’s called a gang in the feverish, fear-stricken minds of white people. And any young, male person of color who has had contact with that group must be a member. So their lives are forfeit. Let’s lock em up and throw away the key…just in case. In fact, let’s pass a law that allows us to specifically target these groups and call them gangs so that the voting white majority will not see them as human.
When white pretty boys group together, it’s called a circle of friends or even more formalized as a fraternity. And when they riot because their university football team lost or because there’s been a crackdown on underage drinking on campus, we call that young people expressing youthful passion. And years later, when the members of this white gang (fraternity), encouraged by decades of distorted privilege, help each other to rob the whole country blind…they don’t get life in prison…they get a 700 billion dollar bailout.
You see, blacks and hispanics pay a price up front. They pay a price before they even get out of the starting block.
But there is justice. Yes there is. Because in the end we all pay. Literally.
Well, this thread has convinced me to stop visiting the site.
Mackie, you sound just like the BVBL crew.
Mackie would have been censored a long time ago if this blog were censored for political content. There have been countless posts on both blogs that I haven’t cared for, Mr. Had Enough, but I have never shied away from a fight as long as its a fair one. If you don’t have a comeback, well, don’t come back!
Those of us who can take the heat are still in the kitchen. Those who just can’t keep up are part of the dwindling few who still post on the stinking bathroom wall that IS censored for political content, also known as BVBL.
Hi NGL, I argee with you that we should not shy away from debate but the racist comments posted above are beyond the pale. They are reckless, racist and untrue.
Would I be permitted to make such broad, racist statements against African Americans or Hispanics? Would I be permitted to tell Mackie that people of color ruin other people’s lives by entering our Nation illegally as he has blamed whites for ruining the lives of people of color and I quote “The reason why is that it is always white people who are destroying other peoples’ lives through systematic racism”?
I have never shared my race with anyone here, but I am white. I do not suffer from “white guilt”. I have earned what I have. I expect others to do the same and if they need a hand, then my religion and my conscience tells me to do that. But I also feel the need to point out injustice and racist diatribe when I see it. And I saw it. He’s a racist.
I suspected ‘had enough’ was a certain poster who shall go unnamed and now I believe my suspicions have been confirmed by one of the last two posts.
I have never hidden behind a second screen name and I believe that can be supported by the administrator(s).
Despite the shrill attempts by some to change the subject, I repeat my previous question and hope for an answer:
Comments are closed.