I think I will just let the readers make up their own minds about who Russell Pearce is and if THEY would feel comfortable with him legislating anything, much less immigration law.

51 Thoughts to “Senator Russell Pearce, author of Arizona’s illegal immigration legislation, seems to like Neo Nazi’s?”

  1. So ‘third world’ is the new buzz word. Gotcha. Or is that ‘you betcha?’

    These rallies and demonstrations with the Hitler flags and swaztikas are just white redneck. Time to call it out for what it is.

  2. Additionally, I want the thug to take his mitts off the Confederate flag. Heritage flags are not to be used as symbols of hate or oppressions. He does not have the right to hi-jack any of the southern flags.

  3. Anyone that is uses Hitler, swastikas, etc, or does not denounce those that do…are scum.

    However, lets see how the law actually plays out. Copy and paste of the federal law is what I hear it is.

    If there are abuses, I see some rich victims showing up. The ACLU will be all over it.

    IF the federal gov’t won’t enforce immigration laws then, its up to the states.

  4. Elena

    Thank you for recognizing the despicable nature of Nazism Cargo, it is never acceptable, not anywhere, anytime.

    I am not sure what you mean “copy and paste of federal law”. Can you maybe share a little more…thanks.

    1. Agreed with Elena and Cargo re Nazi crap going on.

      I am not sure I agree that it is up to states to enforce immigration laws. When would WVA erect a wall to keep Virginians out? What if NM disagreed with AZ?

      Not sure constitutionally states have the right to defend borders. I am not sure what the government is not doing. No one has said yet. There are 20,000 border agents. The existing fence is fairly high tech. We can’t just say, there are illegal immigrants here. Someone needs to enumerate what the feds need to do and what they are not doing…specifically.

  5. Here is another video that is more direct than the other on the Ready/Pearce connections http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsHi6_l1XzA&feature=related

  6. Starryflights

    Senator Pearce does not understand that, during WWII, thousands of young Americans fought, bled, suffered and died at the hands of those waving Nazi flags, at places like Normandy. He and his Nazi boyfriends spit on our veterans.

    If states have the right to enforce federal immigration laws, then other states and cities, such as San Francisco, should have the right not to recognize them, and are fully justified in offering sanctuary.

  7. I have no problem with all of the illegal aliens moving to San Francisco. I’m sure that the 70% of the Arizona populace that support the new laws would welcome it.

  8. Elena

    Knowing that the person who authored this bill has written about the “holocaust tale” and is seen hugging a neo-nazi, does that change your opinion at all? Knowing that FAIR has its tentacles everywhere there is a new immigration law introduced, does that change your opinion at all?

  9. @cargosquid
    And the reason for that is the same reason Stewart and friends pushed immigrants out of PWC. ‘Let Fairfax and Arlington have them,’ they said openly.

    Why do these people think it’s okay to force emigration (which is by definition racial cleansing)? Because the people who make up laws like the original PWC resolution and the AZ laws don’t want a real solution for the whole country. They want to grandstand in their localities, suck up to the hate mongers and get on with their own political careers with their prejudices intact.

    If Stewart et al wanted a real solution, they would be pounding–not knocking–at the doors of the Federal government which is where this problem stems from. They would not be persecuting all immigrants in the name of eliminating “illegals.” They would not be supporting hate groups. They would not be implementing discrimination and racism in our local government.

    Illegal immigration IS a problem that MUST be dealt with. Criminal behavior should NOT be tolerated no matter WHO is doing the crime. But on the local level, where the problems are mainly cultural and neighborhood related, the more pressing problem is overwhelming hatred and bigotry being fostered by the wrong groups and people being in power. These people would prefer segregation and racial cleansing to living amongst people who are different from they are.

    People like Pearce do not belong in our government or in leadership roles. We need positive role models who respect human beings and aim to fix problems in productive, not destructive, ways. Right now, in all levels of government, we do not have enough good leaders.

    All these neo-nazis, including those who claim they aren’t but act like they are, should clear out. All these so-called leaders who buy into and promote the hate need to clear out. It’s up to us to make sure we get better leaders–REAL leaders–in office.

    Starrry is right–anyone who supports Nazis and Ntzi-like behavior spits in the face of our armed forces.

    We are allowing ourselves to be attacked from the inside out.

    No wonder terrorists believe we are easy targets. We ARE. Hatred is weak and makes us vulnerable to outside attacks. Hatred makes us fight one another. Terrorists love this.

    I realize it sounds like I am moving from subject to subject here, but they are all interconnected. As a nation, we depend on the tone and environment set by our leaders. If those are based on hatred and bigotry, we are in big trouble. First, they will persecute the minorities. Then, they will persecute indiscriminately. In the end, they, the ones in power, the aristocracy, will lord over most of us who have already been divided by the tactics they initiated. We are divided and conquered within our own communities.

  10. From my overview(I haven’t read the bill), the bill basically gives state authorities the same powers that federal authorities have in investigating citizenship, when people are being investigated for other reasons or stopped legally.

    70% of Arizona says that they support this bill. Other polls show that a majority of Americans like the bill. If the federal government continues to release illegal aliens, continues to find excuses for not strengthening border security, continues to pander to illegal aliens and their support groups like La Raza (talk about hate groups!), implies or labels that any enforcement by state authorities or support of such laws is racist, then what is a populace supposed to do. We have millions of illegal aliens in this country. Starry is the one that mentioned sanctuary locations. I just agreed. Moving illegal aliens to another location is a bonus. Perhaps they’ll get tired of moving and go home. If a state or locality think that having illegal aliens live there, by all means, let them. State laws are based on the wants of that state’s citizens. Federal law needs to be clarified, simplified, and enforced. But the powers that be want the illegal population to stay. Cheap labor. Political power. More money into government coffers.

    you talk about the hate groups and the separatists. Do you include the Mexican separatists? Do you include the immigrants, both legal and not, that refuse to assimilate and demand that the society change instead of them? Do you not realize that the power that accrues to the people that advocate the “white power” is a result of the the actual authorities lack of response. If the proper authorities don’t provide a solution, other people will find one. Frustration leads to anger. Angry citizens will seek quicker solutions that meet their needs. Wiki: 59.6% of population is non-hispanic white. 29% is hispanic…..Seems like 70% would include some “hispanic” support. 7.9% of the population is thought to be illegal aliens. Over 521,000 persons. And speaking as a census taker, the illegal alien count is vastly under counted.

    Bigotry and racism has become a catchall. When the supporters of this law are called racists, when supporters of any illegal immigration law enforcement are called racists, when Tea party supporters are falsely accused of racism, when supporters of color-blind policies are called racists, when just being a conservative is enough to be called a racist…..well, when a real one shows up, no one cares. Cry wolf too many times……

    While Pearce may be a bigot, why does that automatically make the law bad? The purpose is to move illegal immigration away from Arizona. Unfortunately, 99% of the illegal alien population is from countries south of here. That statistic is not profiling. Its fact.

    If millions of armed persons crossed our border, demanded we change our laws, demanded that parts of our country should be returned to Mexico, etc, we would call that an invasion and send in the troops. Why is it different when they are unarmed?

    If Pearce is to be vilified, will there also be video of the various MECHa and La Raza rallies that demand that SW US territories be Mexican and that Anglos are not allowed. It is those things that also drive laws like this. The feeling is that if various nationalities come here, for whatever reason, and then do things like that, then they can get out.

    Do we need to change our immigration laws? Yes. But, first, we need to secure the border. Whether with a wall, troops, more agents, etc…..its necessary. No country or culture survives uncontrolled immigration. And this is a culture war.

  11. Okay Cargo, let me take this thing one at a time.

    First, I don’t like racism no matter who is being racist. But the fact of the matter is, we “white” people have the power. That means we need to set the tone and treat people right, even those “illegals” that we ALLOWED to come and stay here for our own selfish benefit. We need to do the right thing by these people (the hard working ones, that is, not the criminals) and give them the chance to fix their paperwork.

    Second, neo-nazis, hate groups and “white power” are not a result of anything but hatred. Hate groups exist whether the government is doing its job or not. The KKK didn’t really give a damn about government. They cared about eliminating people they thought were below them, people whom they thought should be treated worse than animals. The KKK dehumanized people, just like these groups do and our leaders endorse that kind of behavior. Hate groups will use ANY cause or excuse to hate. They latch onto things like immigration because it’s easier to gain support when there is already so much fear and anger in the community. The language used and behavior exhibited by anti-immigrant and anti-immigration groups smacks of hate groups. Why do you think the KKK endorsed HSM and GL? They LOVE people like him.

    Third, I’ve never heard of radicals wanting a no-Anglo zone. Where did you read this? Source? If this is true, then of course, it’s ridiculous and out of the question.

    Fourth, I agree we MUST secure the border. I’m not an open-border supporter. I think it’s dangerous and unrealistic at this point in our social evolution. If we can’t even live peacefully among ourselves, we sure as hell will not be able to do it if we open the borders.

    Fifth, immigration should be controlled, but that doesn’t mean we persecute people. Yet, that is what is happening. We are calling it an “invasion” when people are flocking here to work? An “invasion” implies a violent threat. Yes, there are criminals among the illegal population, but it’s a minority. Get rid of the criminals.

    Sixth, any law that allows arbitrary decision making about a person’s citizen status or any other status is subject to abuse. Whether it be racial or gender profiling, the results are the same–misuse of power. How would we feel if cops were allowed to pull us over because we are women based on the assumption that women are bad drivers? That’s what the AZ law encourages, as did the original PWC resolution.

    Finally, people don’t want to assimilate if they feel threatened or unwelcome. They hide within their communities which fosters more isolation. Furthermore, most children of immigrants learn to speak English early on. So we are really only seeing one generation of immigrants who have a hard time assimilating. Every immigrant I have ever met–and I mean every–has wanted to learn to speak English. However, things obstruct their ability to do so. For example, the PWC resolution kept learners out of the classrooms because immigrants of every status were scared.

  12. Rick Bentley

    Love that msnbc slant.

    He forwarded an e-mail that he says he didn’t read completely. I believe him. After all, he forwarded it, to an apparently wide group. If he were going to regret it later, why would he forward it in the first place? Because he didn’t read it thorougly.

    And he hugged a nazi once? Heck, obama used to attend dinner parties with a terrorist who helped found a group that firebombed the Pentagon.

    This is more “gotcha” politics instead of dealing with ideas or objective study.

  13. Rick Bentley

    I’m betting msnbc and some people here would REALLY go bezerk if Pierce had :

    – Attended a church and been married by a racist pastor who rejoiced after a terrorist act against America

    – Recommended books by people who had been domestic terrorists, as well as attending dinner parties with them and counting them as friends

    – Made jokes about retarded people

    – Appointed political hacks to oversee Homeland Security positions

  14. One, we did not “allow” them to come here. They worked very hard to break the law and then our authorities have refused to enforce said laws. Some of us have been trying to stop it for years. The problem is not their paperwork. The problem is that they broke the law in the first place. If I tried to do the same in Mexico, I would be imprisoned for a long time. We just want to send them home or make them want to go home because of increase enforcement of the law.

    Two, I meant that people (bigoted or not) will turn to any “leadership” that appears to solve the problems that frustrate them. The bigots are motivated to provide that leadership.

    Three, (add http)


    Fifth, An invasion is any large mass of people that enter another sovereign territory without permission. If said unarmed invaders then use political or cultural influence to transform a territory, is it no less conquered?

    Sixth, the law allows nothing that is not already available for federal law. If a LEO is found to be violating the law, prosecute. Stops are made for a variety of reasons. Preventing law enforcement from operating on what might happen, stops all law enforcement. Should ID not be requested at ANY time? Shouldn’t one have to provide ID when driving, voting, etc? When caught speeding? Heck, in one patrol region in Arizona, they had 64 pursuits in one month. Not one was a legal resident. Should that officer check their legality?

    Seventh, people also don’t assimilate when they frist have no intention of immigrating. They are here to make money and help the families back home. They consider themselves to still be of the old country. If they stay home and immigrate without breaking the law, then they have no reason to hide. All law breakers want to hide and are isolated. If you are a legal immigrant, hold your head up. If not, then go home. Simple. Nothing is forcing these isolated people to stay here. When I mean assimilation, I mean a desire to become an American and adopt this country as their homeland, not just speaking the language. Illegal aliens have no intention of doing that. I’m sorry that they may not be able to immigrate, but, apparently they did or do not want to follow the rules.

    All people should be treated respectfully. They should treat us respectfully and abide by OUR laws. If we decide that that worker program or increased immigration is a good idea, then we will do it. Until then, they should not come here uninvited.

  15. actually since I live and vote in Phoenix Az. I have a better knowledge of Pearce than those outside the state of Arizona. Even many republicans here including Kyl and McCain don’t like Pearson due to his radical and nazi leaning traits. Jeff Flake has also come out against Pearce. So if you want to play the idea he is a republican getting attacked because he is a republican card, you are wrong on this one. Pearce is an extemist and supported by people like Grover Norquist. I have posted videos that Dennis Gilman made with Pearce and J. T. Ready together and I have talked with Pearce office only to find out if you ask a question, like will Pearce show his Birth Certificate? They will say he committed no crime and slam the phone down. So if you are of republican leanings and want to define Pearce based on that, be careful, even the republicans here don’t like him.

  16. Rick Bentley

    I’m not of Republican leaning at all, but I hesitate to label him without specific proof or quotes. the fact that he doesn’t get along with open-borders guys like McCain and Kyl certainly isn’t something that would bother me about him.

  17. I hate it when I have to be fair. 🙄

    I don’t think that the KKK endorsed HSM or GL. If someone has proof, then I stand corrected. I don’t like dragging that organization into discussion on this blog. It quickly gets out of hand.

  18. @Moon-howler
    MH, email me offline. This was way back when, and GL said something like ‘we don’t need the KKK.’

  19. I have talked with Greg on air and privately, I was impressed that Greg doesn’t support such as the KKK or neo-nazi ideas. Greg is more reasonable than Pearce or Arpaio. Thankfully for you neither your police cheif or Greg seem to be of the same mindset that Pearce and Arpaio is. The sad part here, is Arpaio is the sheriff and Pearce is in the state senate with a hate agenda that even many of the republicans here don’t like.

  20. @Moon-howler

    apparently you aren’t aware of the new McCain TV ad. Of course McCain has more flip-flops than a fish out of water but this is the way he is falling on the immigration issue right now. By the way, the commerical was made in Nogales Az which is on the border and 2 to 3 hours from Pinal County where the sheriff in the commerical is from. The sheriff in the Nogales area has stated that McCain lied about increases in crime in that area and actually the crime rate has taken a slight dip. Here is the ad and an article http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/john-mccain-immigration-reversal-complete-danged-fence/story?id=10616090

  21. @Herb Sarge Phelps
    On the outside, he says he doesn’t. But what he promotes is similar, IMO. That he took his lead from FAIR–a hate group according to the SPLC–is disconcerting.

    That he has physically and verbally threatened people–including wearing army fatigues and threatening to go to a 7-11 with a gun–tells me he is someone we should not trust, never mind in a leadership position.

    That his group, HSM, has been called a nativist group by the ADL is alarming.

    You need to talk to some of the women who have been threatened by this man. And you need to look at his blog a little more closely.

    Just because someone says “I don’t support the KKK” doesn’t mean s/he isn’t acting in a similar manner. Don’t ever take him at his word because his word cannot be trusted. He is manipulative.

    Furthermore, when the KKK approves of you, it’s pretty telling. What kind of groups do you think the KKK approves of?

    I assume you have watched 9500Liberty and witnessed GL’s preaching the Gospel, all the while trying to repel an invasion? Have you seen his references to immigrants as breeders and dog food? Have you seen him post pictures of rats at the County Fair, something the Nazis did when they were trying to demonize the Jews? These are Nazi-like behaviors.

    Saying all of this has made me extremely unpopular. I have also been targeted by the BOCS, GL’s pals and GL himself for saying things like this. But in the end, this is what I believe based on my observations, studies and experiences. And I will exercise my freedom of speech even if people–including members of the BOCS–think I should not.

  22. BTW, I’m an independent, in case it matters, and I don’t think along partisan lines. In fact, I dislike parties.

  23. Wolverine

    Pinko — Re #14, can you give me some explicit examples of how we “persecute” illegal aliens?

  24. @cargosquid
    Cargo, I appreciate the respectful tone in which you say these things. I really do.

    I don’t think, though, that we can assume immigrants don’t want to assimilate or that they don’t want to be part of this country. Do you personally know illegal immigrants who have told you this? Do you know any immigrants who have told you this? I have spoken with many, many immigrants (well over 100 in the past few years) and I can tell you, they want to be part of this society. Making assumptions about their intentions leads us in the wrong direction.

    Are there immigrants who hate the US? Of course! I have met a couple of those. Incidentally, they are not Hispanic, and they are legal citizens.

    I am sure there are people who want to use this country for money and just go back to their own countries after. That’s fine if there is a worker program here, but our worker program is broken. Corporate America uses these people and then throws them away. Are we going to sit back and say, “Thanks for picking our fruit for $1 and hour. Now go home. We never wanted you here in the first place”?

    We can’t send every illegal immigrant back home. It’s impossible, and it would bankrupt the country. I really think we need to keep the “good guys,” let them pay a fee and get their paperwork in order.

    Along with that, we need to secure the border and decide how we want to move forward in terms of accepting new immigrants.

    We didn’t get into this mess overnight, and it it won’t be fixed overnight. But in the meantime, we need to treat one another as human beings, and if we can’t do that, we can at least ignore one another and work on the system.

  25. Happy Harry

    Posting As Pinko :
    MH, email me offline. This was way back when, and GL said something like ‘we don’t need the KKK.’

    Why e-mail offline? If you have credible proof, then show it? You’ve basically accused him of being in line with KKK or endorsed by the KKK- so show it.

  26. @Wolverine
    Wolverine, when the original PW resolution came out, there was a witch hunt for immigrants. Anyone Hispanic, anyone who lived in a crowded house, anyone standing in front of a 7-11 was suspect. The BOCS demanded cops be proactive about finding the “illegals.” These were the people targeted to have their papers checked. It wasn’t like it was now. Now, everyone who is arrested has papers checked. ICE takes care of the more violent cases, which really are the ones we should be worried about. The stats will tell you, though, that the number of crimes in PWC committed by immigrants here illegally is very small.

    When we have people calling immigrants dog food, when we refer to working class human beings as invaders, when we call their children anchor babies and say “deport them all” or “gas them all” or “send them all to Arlington County,” when we make PWC an inhospitable place for people who look and speak differently than we do, then we are persecuting people.

    There are those in this community who want Hispanics out of their neighborhoods. These people don’t like the music, the food, the language or the looks of their Hispanic neighbors. Their neighbors frighten them, so they make assumptions about them. “He must be illegal.” “He must be a drug dealer.” “She must have anchor babies.” “That bastard probably isn’t paying taxes.” They say these things aloud and generalize to the point at which the place becomes toxic. They go to meetings and spout this crap. How do you think this makes immigrants feel? How would you feel if it were your family they were talking about?

    Then go back to GL stalking the 7-11. If that isn’t persecution, I don’t know what is.

    Now…are there drug dealers and crowding problems? Of course! But these are neighborhood problems and problems you get in any city or growing area. You can replace the ethnic group with any other and you have the same issues. But people say, “Oh it’s the Hispanics.” Or “It’s the blacks.”

    Does this answer your question?

  27. Happy Harry

    BTW – thanks for sticking me in moderation. Sorry that you don’t agree with what I have to say. Pot, meet kettle.

    1. Happy Harry,

      Listen carefully. Your comments will be in moderation because you have a ‘not so hidden’ agenda and you are here to pick at someone. We know who and why. I don’t care about who used to be married to whom. Our blog is not the place to air dirty laundry.

      Elena and I are not going to allow it. If you say something productive to the entire blog, your comments will go through. If your comments are disrespectful to Elena, to me, or to any of our blog guests, the comment will not go through. Your words will sit behind the scenes. Consider it time out for naughty behavior if you want.

      I have made it as plain as I can.

  28. You Made Me Feel Illegal

    You made me feel illegal
    the way you eyed my hair
    too-long-too-dyed-for-work hair
    too-third-world-take-care-of-kids hair
    too-got-to-clean-the-house hair
    too-too-much-chat-about-the-family hair.

    You made me feel illegal
    my Wal-mart pants and blouses
    my too-this-isn’t-how-we-dress-here clothes
    too-cheap-to-even-work-here clothes
    too-girly-to-do-your-job-here clothes
    too-back-to-the-slum-with-you-dear clothes.

    You made me feel illegal
    pointing out my jewelry
    “too gold” you say, “too gaudy”
    my too-don’t-show-your-face-in-the-lobby jewelry
    too-you-know-nothing-about-our-country jewelry
    too-go-home-to-anchor-babies jewelry.

    You made me feel illegal
    like I’m too-you-can’t-speak-like-we-know how
    too-got-no-right-to-talk now
    too-got-to-go-and-wash-sticky-floors now
    too-better-go-cook-in-a-filthy-kitchen now
    too-best-sweep-up-the-dirt-you-see now.

    You made me feel illegal
    too-nothing-more-than-low class
    too-nothing-less-than loathed
    You made me feel illegal.

    You oughta be illegal.

    Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
    April 28, 2010

  29. I am not comfortable with the KKK comparisons. They come back to bite Elena, Alanna, and me in the ass. They also attract google searches. They attract undesirable people. They product unnecessary animosity when none needs to exist.

  30. Wolverine

    Pinko — Let me ramble a bit here. I can agree with you absolutely on degradations of an ethnic group as a whole. We should have learned those lessons long ago when many treated the Irish, the Italians, the Slavs, and the Jews in the same way. This causes only hatred and contributes not at all to a solution. Nor does it help to refer to those who are genuinely troubled by this contemporary wave of illegal immigration and its effects on our neighborhoods and on our country as a whole as racists or neo-Nazis. What we have here is truly a clash of cultures which is in many ways like other clashes all throughout the history of mankind. This is, in my opinion, a repeat of many histories; and all of those histories have, unfortunately, been marked by vitriol, hard feelings, name-calling, and, too often, violence. As Americans, we should hope and strive to break the pattern of those previous histories — just like we broke the previous patterns of governance in 1787.

    However, I sometimes wonder if, in this extremely troubled era, we do not tend at one and the same time to (1) exaggerate the “guilt” assigned to a particular ethnic group when criticizing them; and (2) exaggerate the “innocence” of that same group when defending them.

    I certainly condemn the racial aspects of this dispute. I do not like those who view Latino immigrants as somehow flawed and intrinsically bad for our society. On the other hand, I have an equal dislike for those who advocate for such things as Mexicans Without Borders or other Hispano-centric organizations which proclaim that the United States is their land by inheritance and that the rest of us are but interlopers. Both sides contribute equally to the hate, and I truly fear that, if we do not find solutions quickly and in a sensible and lawful way, all this could wind up going in a very bad direction which none of us will like. I think it is high time that all of us, including the Latino leadership in this country, started to admit that there is plenty of guilt to go all around and that we had better sit down together and work this thing out equitably.

    I find it interesting that, when the world “illegal” is used, many who empathize with the plight of these recent immigrants immediately ask satirically how anybody can identify an “illegal” just by looking at him or her. I recall one wag who asked if it was maybe the shoes they wore. Well, I have to agree that you cannot tell whether someone is legal or illegal just by looking at skin color, language, and even a particular social setting. A fair critique, in my view. I say that as someone whose previous profession involved almost exclusively the investigation of people and their backgrounds, not to mention their current activities. I, quite frankly, have the professional tools to do better than most at such identification and have done so accurately in situations where the HOA and the zoning authorities both failed. But even I cannot do it every time. So that critique does remain largely valid.

    The only certain way to identify an “illegal” is to call someone out on it personally, to oblige him or her to show you something which proves that they have legal status — sort of like they do it in Mexico. Yet, we as a nation are bound up by our own unique concepts of constitutional freedom. The idea of “Show me your papers” is as much anathema to most of us as it is to an immigrant. Where that leaves us is in a sort of no-man’s land. The true “illegal” gets to walk around scot free because we cannot oblige him to identify himself unless we detect him in the act of committing another crime, and we scold each other if we deign to make a guess at it outside that crime scenario. Just exactly where does that leave us? I think it leaves us totally at sea in all this. We might as well have no immigration laws at all. I don’t know the way out of this, but I am convinced that we are going to have to find a compromise somewhere or we are destined for a long, long period of bitter national travail. That is one reason why my first recommendation is to seal that border. Make the problem finite and give us the room to find an equitable solution. There has to be an answer somewhere in the middle.

    I am a person of law. A person who crosses the border of another country without official permission has violated the immigration laws of that country. He or she is an “illegal” in every sense of the word. Now, there are some who will make the argument that these people want only to feed their families and that their illegal actions are therefore understandable and perhaps even justifiable. Fair argument as far as it goes. But are we to make it a national habit to excuse the violation of our immigration laws on the basis of need? Where does understanding stop and punishment for violation of the law begin? What’s next? If that same person, bereft of a paying job here, decides to enter your house and help himself to your possessions, will you still excuse his actions on the basis of a genuine need to feed his family? I think not. I often have those same feelings about the needs of a man to feed his family; but I also believe that, if he decides to break the law knowingly to accomplish that and if he is excused for that action, we are opening the door to chaos. Therefore, I believe that the Latino leadership in this country should stop rushing automatically to the defense of these illegal immigrants with a sort of ethnocentric bias and accusations of racism. Let us all state flatly that these people have knowingly violated the law of this country, should not be automatically defended, and should pay a strong penalty — not be rewarded for their scoffing at the law. If that penalty might mean going back to the country of origin to follow the lawful immigration procedures, so be it. That is the exact same fate I would suffer in their countries of origin if I was an illegal immigrant — although it would also mean some jail time in Mexico. For our part we need to look at those immigration laws, make them more efficient, and do some sensible targeting with regard to our actual immigrant labor needs. Mass deportation in the millions is certainly not an option, but we had better find an answer quick. That pot is boiling in my opinion.

    Now, we encounter the argument and counterargument that illegal immigrants are or are not a cause for concern because of crime. Once again the debate goes to extremes, and statistics are interpreted whichever way one wants to interpret them. For one thing, I believe it is wrong to look at overall crime statistics. The only certain picture one can obtain on this issue is through looking specifically at those areas which have the heaviest concentration of illegal immigrants. About two or three years ago, if you had looked at the overall crime statistics for Loudoun County, the argument could be made that crime was of little consequence in the county. But, if you isolated your statistical evidence to just Eastern Loudoun east of Route 28 , you would get an entirely different picture. The citizen of Eastern Loudoun was not made to feel safer and less fearful because statistics showed that the overall county crime rate was low.

    So, let me address this issue from the aspect of my own area of Eastern Loudoun:

    No. 1: You have in my particular development of 600 homes about 36% Hispanics, legal and illegal. This figure appears to have dropped somewhat because of recent departures of many young men during the current recession in search of better job prospects.

    No. 2: As the principal Neighborhood Watch , I keep a logbook of all incidents, including violations of county law and HOA rules, in which I have been involved fully or partially.

    No. 3: In my personal view, illegal immigrants, having violated the law just by being here, are often forced to engage in further violations just to survive in their “shadow world.” This includes, inter alia, driving with a forged or no license; driving with no insurance; overcrowding of homes in violation of county law and HOA rules; disregard of other zoning laws, etc. In a way this is understandable. You do what you have to do to survive under adverse conditions. You take a chance on being caught by law enforcement, turned over to ICE, and being deported.

    But, I have personally come to the conclusion that this breaking of the law and the rules becomes such a habit that it extends beyond the necessary and into the area of nonsense. In effect, if you are trying to avoid the clutches of law enforcement and ICE, why would you unnecessarily break other laws and rules when such violations just serve to bring attention to yourself? It takes almost no effort whatsoever to comply with these laws and rules. Such compliance serves to keep attention from you and even to mitigate any potentially angry encounters with law enforcement, with legal neighbors, or with HOA management if you live in such an area. From my personal observations, some illegal immigrants have understood this. However, the mystery is why so many of them do not. I have found that this latter situation is perhaps one of the key factors in the hostility between legal residents and illegal residents.

    Quite candidly, if you followed these basic rules in a community as diverse as this one is, you could become virtually “invisible” in some ways regardless of legal status. Culture and language are not excuses. Virtually everything we do here is in English and Spanish. The laws and rules are explained to you when you first move in as an owner or renter. Constant updates and reminders are sent out in both languages. We have an Hispanic liaison person. We have held Hispanic nights to explain the “facts of life” here. We have even had our own ESL program. And, if that doesn’t wake you up, the fines imposed for HOA violations certainly will. Yet, I have seen these violations continue at such a repeated pace that both the HOA and NW have had to get much, much tougher and much more often directly in the face of the violators.

    No. 4: This NW in this community is an equal opportunity outfit. The skin color of a violator makes no difference whatsoever. But, I am going to be completely candid and blunt in this. As I go through the logbooks of the last four years with regard to criminal activities, zoning violations, and the breaking of HOA rules, I can see that about 8 out of every 10 reportable incidents have involved Hispanic residents in a community where Hispanics represent about 36% of the population. You cannot dispute me on this. I am the one who investigated and reported these incidents. You want a sample in sheer numbers? In 2008-2010 alone, 468 solved cases of trash dumping or unlawful handling of solid waste. Those are only the violations in which the violator could be identified. The combined total hits, solved and unsolved, are about 800 with circa 70% being Hispanic households. “It’s just trash!!”, you may scoff. Well, your tune would change if your HOA had to keep an exterminator on contract for rat problems and if you lived in a county which was number one in the Commonwealth for confirmed rabies cases. Until we determined to get a handle on this, NW was chasing off from unprotected trash bags not only rats but also skunks, raccoons, possum, stray dogs, feral cats, foxes, and once even a coyote — all prime carriers of rabies which were spreading the foodstuffs from ripped trash bags all over the common areas and laying the table for the rodents. (That was just a sideline added to the efforts against criminal types of all kinds and violators of the zoning laws.) The trash laws are clear and simple. But far too often they are repeatedly ignored despite pleas and warnings and fines. Go figure.

    Let me finish this by saying that we will not be able to solve this problem until we all stop painting our own side as angels and the other side as devils. American citizens and their government representatives were wrong to let this problem drag on for more than three decades without addressing the flaws in our immigration system. Certain American employers have been wrong to engage illegal immigrants and mistreat these same people because they have no legal defenses when such actions are a violation of American law. Central American governments are wrong when they fail to address the economic problems of their own people and then willingly use the United States as their dumping ground for those whom they should have helped in the first place. And now that we ourselves have let this problem get out of hand because of our own negligence, those who cast ethnic slurs at the new immigrants are, in essence, hiding from a problem we helped to create and showing themselves unwilling to find workable compromises. On the other hand, those who strike back with simple cries of racism and anti-Hispanic bias are involved in the same obfuscation of the problem as those engaging in ethnic slurs. They seem too often to give a lesser importance to the social, cultural, and economic problems which this large illegal immigrant presence has caused. Both sides should stop casting aspersions and decide to find the answers we need.

    As for the leaders of our Latino community, they also need to admit that this illegal immigrant presence has caused a disruption of our society — yes, “our” society, because this society is as much theirs as mine. They cannot pretend to be blind to the negative effects of continued violation of our laws, the unprecedented growth of violent gangs, the deterioration of neighborhoods and entire communities because of demographic changes and avoidance of compliance with our local and county laws. They have to stop coming to the automatic defense of anyone with a brown skin just because they share an ethnic bloodline. Just like any other ethnic group, there is the “bad” mixed in with the “good”; and, quite bluntly, the “bad” are part and parcel of this inflammable mix in which we find ourselves.

    Last of all, I condemn the real villains here. Those politicians who chase after the “Hispanic vote” for purposes of their own political power. They are pouring oil on the burning water. They are the ones who are dividing all of us by appearing to favor one side over the other and creating a big part of the resultant ethnic animosity. We look to them for leadership and what we get is nothing but further aggravation of the problem because they just cannot let go of things political. Shame on them all.

  31. Starryflights

    Wolverine :Pinko — Let me ramble a bit here. Well, your tune would change if your HOA had to keep an exterminator on contract for rat problems and if you lived in a county which was number one in the Commonwealth for confirmed rabies cases. Until we determined to get a handle on this, NW was chasing off from unprotected trash bags not only rats but also skunks, raccoons, possum, stray dogs, feral cats, foxes, and once even a coyote — all prime carriers of rabies which were spreading the foodstuffs from ripped trash bags all over the common areas and laying the table for the rodents. (That was just a sideline added to the efforts against criminal types of all kinds and violators of the zoning laws.) The trash laws are clear and simple. But far too often they are repeatedly ignored despite pleas and warnings and fines. Go figure.

    You got that “rambling” part right. WTF are you talking about?

  32. Rick Bentley

    “I was impressed that Greg doesn’t support such as the KKK or neo-nazi ideas.”

    I was at the first (public) Help Save Manassas meeting. There were people in the room with a pro-white agenda. Big, angry people. When they started to speak, he rather forcefully told them there was no place for any of that in HSM and they should get lost. It was pretty dramatic actually.

  33. @Wolverine
    Wolverine, well said at every turn. I could not agree more that these issues you bring up are indeed important ones, and I don’t think you are being racist in any way.

    At a BOCS meeting, I sat next to a landlord who rents out trailers. He was supporting the original immigration resolution because he was tired of “Hispanics” doing things like peeing on the lawn, drinking in public etc. I asked him if he had good tenants who took care of their property, would he even be at this meeting or be thinking about citizen status. He said, “no.” In fact, he said he had several nice Hispanic families living in his other homes and that he would love more of them, no matter what their status, which he said isn’t any of his business.

    Too many people are not making the distinction between neighborhood issues and illegal immigration issues. Too many people are also mistaking traits of certain socio-economic groups with racial groups. Just because a man drinking a beer on his front stoop and he has tan skin doesn’t mean he is an illegal Hispanic immigrant. (Someone actually said something like that before–that illegals drink on their front stoops. Oh, and let’s not forget that the sign of a flop house is keeping the front door open. If you’re Hispanic and you keep the front door open, you most certainly are illegal.) Wolverine, your problematic tenants could just as easily be….(insert various ethnic groups here).

    This is a little off the track, but I have a Puerto Rican friend who speaks English but is often more comfortable with Spanish or even Spanglish. More than one person has told him, “Go back to your own country.”

    In no way do I wish to demonize “whites.” In no way do I want to open the border or give into foreign gangs because I think the U.S. deserves to be ruled by another country. I’m not into being flogged, no matter who is doing the flogging. But as I said before, we “whites” are in power, and as such, it is our responsibility to use that power judiciously.

    When we give power to people who damage our communities instead of fixing them, we do everyone an injustice. We might just as well elect into office the trash throwers you refer to.

    The difference between the people throwing trash on the lawn and the people making the laws is that it’s easier to pick up trash and fine residents than it is to throw out crooked politicians and radical, mean-spirited community leaders.

  34. Rick Bentley

    Wolverine, my bitterness at the “left” and the “right’ for the way they’ve played this is one reason I’ll never accept any Amnesty for identity theft. We cannot let our elites disregard our laws and transform our country to their benefit. It’d be like marrying someone who raped you, after the fact.

    On top of which of course the illegal individuals should never be rewarded for cheating, lying, etc..

  35. Elena

    That was really a great post #34 and I believe reflective of how many of us feel. I also appreciate how you acknowledged Wolverines points and concerns. THAT was a demonstration of honest and respectful dialogue, thank you PaP and Wolverine!

  36. Wolverine and Cargo are pretty good guys, IMO. I enjoy reading their posts very much even when we don’t agree. I would never worry about them running through Manassas with guns and pitchforks.

  37. Pinko, well…pitchforks…….you might get arrested. Guns…..not so much.

  38. Wolverine

    Pinko — I found your example of that trailer park owner right on the mark in many ways. Those of his immigrant tenants, whether legal or illegal, who follow the rules can be a major factor in lowering tempers and helping to put out the fire at neighborhood and local levels. While I cannot agree that the illegal immigration question on the whole is none of his business, your question to him, nevertheless, was spot on. Lowering the tempers and dousing some of the fire is where we need to start here. This can rebound positively toward finding the larger answers we are looking for. You have to wonder if HSM or “Help Save Anyplace Else” would even exist if more of the illegal immigrant population had decided to police itself and conform as much as possible to the norms of the communities in which they had located. Had that happened here I probably would not be out on the streets as part of NW. I know that fear can play a role in hampering this; but, still, somebody has to step forward here.

    I think the Latino leadership has a key role in this which they absolutely must play. Instead of focusing so much on a perceived “anti-Hispanic” aspect of the problem, they should, in my opinion, direct a good portion of their energy toward teaching the immigrant community that conformance to societal standards in your host country is the smart way to go. Being a “good neighbor” can go a long ways toward helping someone reach his ultimate goal of acceptance.

    Interestingly enough, I found an historical example of this which should interest Elena very much. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, certain parts of the Jewish immigrant community in New York and other major cities turned to organized crime as a livelihood. Those who lived in those places in that era would certainly have recognized names such as Monk Eastman; Arnold Rothstein (he alleged “fixed” the 1919 World Series); Max “Kid Twist” Zweiback; Jacob Levinsky of the “Yiddish Black Hand”, prominent labor racketeer Joe “The Greaser” Rosenzweig, Louis “Lepke” Buchalter of Murder Inc.; Dutch Schultz; Abe “The General” Greenthal, leader of a notorious nationwide pickpocket gang; and many others. In the lexicon of that era could be found such terms as the “Jewish Mob”, the “Jewish Mafia”, the “Kosher Mafia”, and the “Kosher Nostra.” This had become a real societal problem in some places.

    Although the late Prohibition Era and after still saw the presence of other Jewish organized crime denizens such as Meyer Lansky and Benjamin “Bugsy” Siegel, usually in an alliance with the Cosa Nostra, the connection in the public eye between the Jewish community and organized crime had virtually disappeared by that time. Well, it seems to me that what happened was an intervention by the Jewish community as a whole. Realizing what a negative effect this had on the entire community, they apparently found a way to put a stop to most of it. They themselves were instrumental in rectifying that problem and bringing the entire Jewish community out from under a damaging cloud. All I can say about them is that these people had some kind of “guts” and determination to do that.

    That is precisely what I want to see from the Latino leadership in this era. Intervention — not just with misbehaving illegal immigrants but also with the gang and other criminal problems. We cannot solve this problem without them. We all need them. We have got to become partners and not adversaries in this.

  39. @cargosquid
    LOL! Somehow, I suspect if you were running through the streets brandishing a gun of any kind, you would garner some not-so-good attention.

  40. @Wolverine

    Most HSM members probably would have dropped out if there had been more neighborhood resources and activists out there. But it’s always easier to throw a fit and blame certain groups than it is to do something productive about the real problem.

    In fairness, though, the local government has to support neighborhood efforts, not through “resolutions” but by providing practical neighborhood resources and encouraging people to take pride in their communities.

    Incidentally, I heard one Hispanic leader talking about how his group was trying to tutor the Hispanic communities on the issues you and others bring up. I wonder how many of those groups are out there but aren’t getting any press.

  41. @Posting As Pinko
    Actually, open carry there is no problem. The VCDL does it all the time when they have meetings.

    Pitchforks, though…..I think those are classified as “assault forks”…….

  42. What did we do in the days before there were huge numbers of Hispanics? How did we grouse about the neighborhood issues which I believe are socio-economic? I lived in a townhouse community in the area got very horrible really fact a number of years ago.

    There were no Hispanics involved.

  43. Wolverine

    Moon, I’m not sure about this area; but in my old Midwest hometown they came up with a program to clean up blighted neighborhoods, especially those with major crime problems. First, they offered you a low cost loan to fix up your house and your yard. Many took advantage of that, and the transformations were excellent. The whole place looked a lot better; and, true to the police “broken window” theory. the crime stats started to go way down. Those who refused to cooperate with the program, however, found their delapidated homes condemned as public hazards and then torn down, all with the approval of the courts. I used to play in that neighborhood as a boy. A number of empty lots now attest to the fact that the city, the citizens of the town, and the courts all meant what they said.

    In another town, where my mother was born and raised, they came up with a rewards program. It was an old town with many, many Victorian homes on up to the art deco things of the 1920’s and 1930″s. I believe they also made low-cost remodeling loans available. I do know that they gave out substantial cash prizes to those who had done the best transformations of their residences. Amazing. In the 1990’s, the home built by my great-grandfather and where my mother was born looked like it was about to tumble over. The last time I visited that town, the house looked like my great-grandfather had just finished building it.

    It can be done. Not many Hispanics involved in either case.

  44. Elena

    My dad is working on a documentary about the largest jewish neighborhood in the Boston area. What is amazing is the community solidarity. It was like one big family, people took care of each other, they helped one another succeed if you will.

  45. Wolverine, I doubt if there is hope for my old neighborhood. It was a long time ago. But I like the ideas you suggest. Are banks involved with the low cost loans or govt?

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