Several outright lies were told during the debate Wednesday that went unchallenged.  Several of them will have long-lasting fallout if the majority of the people watching believe them.

Trump declared that he knew of a 2 year old who “caught” autism right after receiving vaccinations.  No medical evidence has ever been established regarding vaccinations and autism.   According to the Washington Post opinion:

There were a lot of half-truths and out-right falsehoods peddled at CNN’s Republican debate Wednesday night, but perhaps the most damaging among them was the assertion by Donald Trump that childhood vaccinations cause autism, and others’ skepticism about the safety of the vaccine schedule set out by the American Academy of Pediatrics. It was particularly galling watching two physicians who are president candidates, Ben Carson and Rand Paul, pander when they clearly know better.

Where were the 2 doctors when Trump was making his bold claim?  Carson equivocated rather than just calling BS.  Rand Paul was silent.  Trump told an irresponsible lie.  His opponents who were in a position to challenge him, didn’t.  Shame on all three of them.

 

Carly Fiorina also  lied.  She challenged to Hillary to watch a fabricated video of a fully-formed baby with kicking legs being dismembered for its brain.  She lost all credibility on that one.  There is no such video of such any such  event.

Shame on her.  She has a lot going for her as a candidate.  I have scratched her off my list because of her lie.  That is not how stem cell research works.

Hopefully, the more reasonable, truthful  Republicans will bump off the wannabes.

54 thoughts on “Republican debate lies

  1. Steve Thomas

    So I guess you won’t be supporting Hillary either.

  2. Did Hillary also lie about vaccinations? I sure hope not. I felt it was a horribly irresponsible thing to say about autism and vaccines.

    To be perfectly honest, I am not sure who I am supporting if anyone.

  3. Kelly_3406

    There is a video in which someone claims to have seen a case of an aborted baby which still had a beating heart. And it is now indisputable that PP profits from supplying baby parts to labs. Even if she mixed up the details, the essentials of her point are grounded in fact.

    1. Kelly, it most certainly is disputable that PP profits from the sale of baby parts. A clinic recovered costs. All clinics don’t provide abortions. All clinics that provide abortions don’t necessarily deal with stem cell research people or harvest organs.

      Have you seen that video? Didn’t think so because it doesn’t exist.

      Question for you–do you oppose all stem cell research or is it just the thought that money might be involved that bothers you? I am asking about profit, not covering costs.

      I see a shiny object out there muddling the works. Let’s assume that fetal parts are discarded as medical waste, which they are. Would you rather have this happen than tissue be used to help combat disease?

      I think this is the discussion we need to be having.

      Carly flat out lied, perhaps not intentionally but she spoke inaccurately.

  4. BSinVA

    I do not want a president, no matter what party affiliation, that “mixed up details” when making policy decisions or that either refuses to understand or does not have the capacity to understand that medical professionals have credence in medical issues over politicians.

    1. I don’t either. I actually think that the remarks made about vaccinations was down-right dangerous. As Trump spoke those words, I wondered how many of his followers would not refuse to have their children inoculated against some of the diseases that have been world-wide scourges.

      CNN. Carson, and Paul all need to be buggy whipped for allowing Trump’s remarks to go unchallenged.

      Carly just lied. Pinocchio style lying. Her lie won’t have the long term affects on children’s heath that Trumps lie will have.

  5. Emma

    I would have preferred a debate in which the moderators focused on larger issues of importance to national security and the economy, and how the candidates plan to improve on the current President’s performance. That at least would provide a benchmark with which to evaluate the candidates, rather than simply pitting them against each other over issues that really shouldn’t involve the President at all.

    1. I agree with you 100% Emma.

      There were also too many people on the stage. Some folks were left out of the discussion for the most part.

  6. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :
    Did Hillary also lie about vaccinations? I sure hope not. I felt it was a horribly irresponsible thing to say about autism and vaccines.
    To be perfectly honest, I am not sure who I am supporting if anyone.

    Hillary’s lied about email servers, the number of devices she used, classified material, and on and on.

    Trump’s vaccination remarks were ignorant, but did they harm national security?

    As far as support, I am pretty much in the same boat, as my preferred candidate is fading fast. Still, there are a whole bunch of others I can consider.

    1. Trumps remarks could have a very long range effect on parents. I think disease prevention is an important part of national security. Like I said, Carly was just pulling a rabbit out of her whatever….(best Trump imitation) but what Trump actually said has the potential to harm.

      I remember having measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella, etc. We all lived in dreaded fear that we would get polio. All of these diseases were serious contagious diseases that could kill you. They have pretty much been stomped out, except when parents don’t vaccinate.

      I am just going to sit back and watch it all. I keep thinking, 300+ million people in the United States and this is what we end up with?
      I was very taken aback by the vaccine remark.

    2. Oh, the emails have little to do with my feelings about Hillary. I just have a bad case of Clinton fatigue. I would be more accurate saying I don’t have feelings about her at all.

  7. Steve Thomas

    “I think disease prevention is an important part of national security.”

    I think securing top secret material is a very important part of national security.

    “All of these diseases were serious contagious diseases that could kill you. They have pretty much been stomped out, except when parents don’t vaccinate.”

    And when we look the other way while untold thousands enter our country illegally, from places where these diseases are still rather common. The whole vaccination debate was going long before Trump made his remarks, and the percentage of parents not vaccinating is very small, and poses little risk to those of us who have been vaccinated. I agree that his remarks were stupid, and hope that it will hasten the breaking of “Trump Fever”, as I am much more concerned about all of his empty rhetoric, past liberal positions, and the fact that people are again falling for a huckster saying what people want to hear.

    1. He has said so many stupid things I couldn’t possibly cover them all. I just pulled out 2 lies that I found significant, each for different reasons.

      As for immigrants coming in with diseases, I don’t think we have to just target those coming in illegally. Anyone can come in on a tourist visa carrying God knows what. Wasn’t that the problem with the ebola scare?

      Yes, the vaccine discussion has been going on for decades actually. I don’t think we need some dumb ass telling a bunch of followers that having your kids vaccinated is going to cause them to become autistic. 25 million people heard that statement. Carson and Paul, both doctors, should have stodd him down on that one.

      They apparently just couldn’t step up to the plate.

      I agree that people are falling for a huckster. We probably don’t agree on past hucksters though.

  8. Ed Myers

    Hmm, if voters are so easily enticed by a huckster what does that say about “base” voters who are the only ones engaged at this point?

    I suspect people are voting for entertainment, not politics.

  9. Starryflights

    The republican candidates lie because they know that republican voters are stupid enough to fall for them.

    1. Starry, Those kinds of opinions are not productive and contribute nothing to civil discussion.

  10. Pat.Herve

    The debate was full of them – and the Dem’s debate has not occurred yet.

    Christie was not US Attorney until Dec 2001 (not Sept 10 as he repeats)
    Carly never saw the video she talks about
    They all said in one way or another that Fed Funds pay for abortions
    Trump – well, he is the Donald of course
    Rubio and North Korea having ICBM’s
    Huckabee – well, did he even speak at the event?

  11. Lyssa

    The candidates I can stomach don’t have any creds. The candidates that come close to having creds I can’t stomach. I can’t stomach any of the rest – my stomach and I are going to have an interesting experience. Maybe wine will help.

    Yes, 300million plus and this is what we get? Hollywood has remade most of the best old movies…I think politics has remade most of the best old candidates. At this point, Romney is looking pretty good.

  12. Steve Thomas

    Starryflights :
    The republican candidates lie because they know that republican voters are stupid enough to fall for them.
    </blockquot

    Your argument is invalid…because: Obama

  13. Steve Thomas

    Ed Myers :
    Hmm, if voters are so easily enticed by a huckster what does that say about “base” voters who are the only ones engaged at this point?
    I suspect people are voting for entertainment, not politics.

    What does it say? I am asking myself that same question, as I look at whose leading/rising/falling on both sides of the isle. It might be entertainment, or it might be frustration. Then again, it might be name ID.

  14. Starryflights

    @Moon-howler I can’t think of another word for explaining someone who refuses to vaccinate their child. They put not only their own children at risk, but others as well.

  15. Scout

    The difference between a “lie” and an ignorant statement is sometimes hard to discern. It all has to do with the intent and knowledge of the speaker. I think a lot of things get said in these fora that are just plain ignorance, or laziness about checking the reality of a story someone was told (Ronald Reagan, for whom I have a very high regard in most contexts,) was famous for reciting stories that he heard somewhere or saw in a movie and that somehow became embedded in his memory as true. A lie has to have intent to deceive, and has to be known by the speaker to be false. Of course, when you are considering electing a leader of the United States, careless speech short of a lie is revealing in a negative way also. And there is a lot of that in these settings. I’ve roughly divided the candidates into two groups: those who say things they don’t believe because they think that’s the way to garner votes from people who are easily conned, and those who really believe the nonsense that they say. The first category is dishonest. I’ve always thought of Cruz as the best example of this. He is a very smart guy, too smart to believe that much of anything he says is true or in the best interests of the United States. I sort of believe Santorum really does believe his silliness. Those are the two ends of the spectrum in my mind. Actually, in terms of running the country, I am less frightened by the guy who will say anything but has the mental equipment to know it’s false than I am by the guy who says stuff that is palpable nonsense, but that he really believes. I always feel that if the chips were really down and a complex decision had to be made for the security of the country, the smart liar is more likely to make the right decision than the sincere dummy.

    1. Scout, what you are saying actually makes sense about the smart liar.

      I will add Trump and Fiorina to the smart lair group.

  16. Kelly_3406

    @Moon-howler

    I have seen a video of a woman who purported to be a former PP employee and to have seen aborted babies whose hearts were still beating. This was not a recent video, probably a couple of years ago.

    You are splitting hairs regarding profiting from baby parts. I imagine these parts are very hard to get, and so Labs probably pay quite a lot for them. It could be a large source of revenue for PP. One thing I have learned is that PP clinics that do not provide abortions refer women to PP clinics that do. And so the question is this: is the sell of body parts lucrative enough that PP tries to encourage women who are on the fence into abortions?

    1. Your thinking is so draconian. I have heard people say they have seen all sorts of things when they are “turned.” Perhaps they feel it is part of their redemption.

      Frankly, based on what I know about the procedure, that didn’t happen. If it did, let’s see the unedited video.

      I had a friend named Kathy who was very active in the pro choice movement. She used to shadow some of the upper echelon of Operation Rescue and basically got “turned.” She started talking all sorts of smack about what she had “seen” various places. No she hadn’t. I don’t know if she had a religious conversion or if she just changed her mind radically about women having the choice to make their own reprodI alwauctive choices. I always thought she had a crush on one of the guys.

      I don’t think I am splitting hairs over profiting from parts. I hope that none of the Planned Parenthoods will do stem cell salvaging. It’s just not worth the problem that it causes, especially when you have dim wits falling for a stupid set up. The stem cell labs can go to the clinics that are less involved with federal funds. I think any clinic that takes Medicaid is going to be problematic.

      For the record, I believe that Planned Parenthood did nothing wrong other than hire someone who got duped by liars–people who lie about who they are and what their agenda is. Yet our congress has listened to liars. I am not impressed.

      Carly Fiorina is also a liar. I am listening to her lie as we speak. If she has seen such a video, please, let us see it.

      I had considered her as someone I would vote for. Not now.

  17. Scout

    This last point about Fiorina’s statement is easy. Let’s just have someone link the video with the heart beating, legs kicking baby.

  18. Starryflights

    Another Trump lie

    tried — and failed — to open a casino in Florida

    As Jeb Bush was campaigning to be governor of Florida, real estate mogul Donald Trump sought a meeting with one of Bush’s closest allies in the state legislature.

    Trump wanted to discuss his plan to loosen Florida’s gambling restrictions so he could partner with an Indian tribe and open a casino in the state. He met twice with the lawmaker, then-soon-to-be state House Speaker John Thrasher, once for lunch at the 21 Club in New York and again at Trump’s extravagant Palm Beach estate, Mar-a-Lago. And as Thrasher recalls, Trump was clear about his views on easing Florida law.

    The 1998 meetings have taken on new importance now, as Trump is running for president by presenting himself as a populist political outsider who is free from the influences of special interests that can sway typical politicians like Bush. In a memorable debate confrontation, Bush accused Trump of being a “special interest” who gave him money in the 1990s in hopes of legalizing casino gambling but failed to sway him, because, Bush said, “I’m not going to be bought by anybody.”

    Trump denied Bush’s claim as “totally false.”

    “I promise,” Trump said in the Wednesday night debate, “if I wanted it, I would have gotten it.”

    Here are Donald Trump’s most memorable moments from the second GOP debate. (CNN)

    But documents and interviews show Trump did seek to open the door to casino gambling in Florida during Bush’s time. Trump had donated to the state GOP, and, according to Thrasher and another former state official who held meetings on the issue on Bush’s behalf, made his views known in the state capital.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-donald-trump-tried–and-failed–to-open-a-casino-in-florida/2015/09/18/2e1c5616-5d5f-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

  19. blue

    Hmm, if voters are so easily enticed and upset by political wannabes who are splicing stories to make an important point, what does that say about “base” voters who are more than willing to refuse to see the smoke and fire comming out of the investigations of Hillory. That cannot, in my view, be written off as simple entertainment, but rather a dangerous party and personal loyalty that never bodes well for the nations who have experienced it in the past.

    As to the “lies” – whether they are serious lies or not, I assume in fairness that this thread opens up an opportunity to fully list the confirmed lies of Obama and Hillory.

    And finally, my take on the Planned Parenthood debate lies in the funding. This is a private share owner company not a government agency that somehow has authorization legislation that gives it a designated entitlement funding. What is that about — Planned Parenthood is NOT too big to fail, other groups and firms who are less entitled and less willing to do the obscene can and will fill the gap. Moreover, there were some Germans who did awful things in the name of research and science that were prosecuted as war criminals, so let’s not go down that research road. This is not about health care or abortion per se. No difference here.

    1. No, it doesn’t open up the thread to lies that you think Hillary or Obama has told. Deflection. Swing and a miss. Is Obama running for office? Nooooooooooo. Was Hillary on the stage last Wednesday? Nooooooooooo.

      Why can’t you address the issues that the post is about? They aren’t that complicated and examples were give of each in the event that you missed them.

      Planned Parenthood is authorized to receive government funding because of Title X. The various clinics across the nation also see Medicaid patients.

      If you were on Medicare, would you want the government shutting your arthritis clinic down to you? I would be madder than hell if I am entitled to that service. Right there is the big gotcha!

      Are you sure there are groups out there willing to see all the people who use planned parenthood services? I have always seen them as picking up the slack, not fighting for poor patients. The reimbursement on Medicaid is much less than from private insurance or walkin without any insurance.

  20. blue

    @Starryflights

    Hey little one, congratulations, you must be on of the 15 people who still watch MSNBC.

    1. All sorts of people watch msnbc. Don’t try the news show popularity game, Foxie. The more sheeple doesn’t make Faux News more right.

  21. blue

    Moon-howler :
    No, it doesn’t open up the thread to lies that you think Hillary or Obama has told. Deflection.
    Why can’t you address the issues that the post is about?

    If you were on Medicare, would you want the government shutting your arthritis clinic down to you? I would be madder than hell if I am entitled to that service. Right there is the big gotcha!
    Are you sure there are groups out there willing to see all the people who use planned parenthood services?

    Talk about deflection – there it is; different rules for your favored groups and persons, in an effort to cut off debate.

    I call Deflection to your suggestion that if there is no Planned Parenhood there is no legal services. Wrong. Wrong Wrong. That is like the Deomogod argument that we have the Iran deal or war. Now confess, do you own stock in Planned Parenthood? Shutting off the directed subsidies – yes under Title 10, given their criminal behavior – to Planned Parenthood would in no way impact your entitlements.

    1. Actually Blue, I would say no to discussing George Bush there also. Its all about topic.

      I never said anything about legal services. I talked about title X and health care for poor women.

      No, you cannot buy stock in Planned Parenthood. It’s an non profit organization. I donate to Planned Parenthood.

      I don’t think their behavior is criminal and you have no proof that it is.

      Let me pose another question. As a conservative, you don’t want to pay out your hard earned tax money to welfare recipients do you? Do you not dislike SNAP, WIC, and HUD housing and other programs that prop up the poor?

  22. blue

    @Moon-howler

    I was talking about legal health services not legal services per se, and yes, there is now more than ample evidence to bring charges both against the individuals involved and the corporate structure itself. Do you really still maintain that there is no selling of baby parts?

    Some non profits have stock owners are you sure there are none here, even if you are not. I would also like to look at the salary structures and benefits rates, but that is for some reason not available. In any case, I see the conflict of interest. I get the denial. You are a good person that does not want to believe that an organizaqtion that has/had so much potential to do good could do what it has been shown to be going on.

    Re your question: Stop it. You know better. Conservatives and Republicans do not and have never argued for the end of welfare, wic, HUD housing or anything of the kind. Its the way its done, the incentives that Democrats create for its expansion in order to buy support with federal give-aways. Proping up the poor is not the issue, creating incentives to abuse it or worse allow it to become a life-style is.

    1. Working backwards here. I absolutely do not know better. I think many people want fewer people on welfare and welfare related programs. How do you do that? One big way is to reduce the number of unintended, unplanned pregnancies through the use of reliable contraception. If it were left up to me, I would be putting in the water supply if necessary. Sure, that is hyperbole but it is critical to making sure that people are able to support themselves.

      Think about how many people have interrupted education because they have to support a family that should have been postponed for years. Think about how many women just go on welfare because they have too many kids to afford child care. Its sad.

      Non-profits–no, I don’t own stock in planned parenthood. I donate to the legislative arm of the organization. Would I buy stocks if they went public? My decision would be based on finances rather than because they are an abortion provider. I don’t think they were selling body parts. I saw the tapes. I know enough about what goes on during a normal procedure not to be fooled. I will gladly elaborate if you would like. Personally, I would recommend that PP just direct all its affiliates to not get involved with stem cell. There are plenty of less public medical facilities to handle that with the stem cell labs. But no, I don’t think they did anything illegal. Distasteful to many but not illegal.

      There is not ample evidence. If there were, they would be under arrest and a court date would have been set. Handling and storage fees are not the same as selling body parts. Regardless, the workers were totally stupid to get entrapped. Medical people don’t even flinch at discussing somethings that make “civilians'” toes curl.

      The big question that arises here is, would you refuse a medical procedure or medicine for a disease because you knew that cure or treatment was a result of stem cell research? I would not.

      I would deny nothing if I knew that is what was going on. For the record, the whole idea of body parts really is no more objectionable to me thinking that they were sold as thinking that they were donated as thinking that they were tossed as medical waste. Discarding anything termed medical waste is grizzly to me. I don’t want to get up close and personal, regardless. My only objection to selling would be that it is against the law. I very much support stem cell research. I just don’t want to look at it.

  23. Pat.Herve

    How many Title X providers (low or no charge access to family planning, contraceptives and STD treatment) are there in

    Wisconsin – One – Planned Parenthood
    Utah – One – Planned Parenthood
    Ohio – Two – Planned Parenthood and Ohio State
    Tennessee – Two – Planned Parenthood and the State
    Virginia – Two – Planned Parenthood and VA Department of Health

    So, for all those that want to just abolish the funding for Title X – you are impacting many people – these programs actually pay for themselves with less births – yes, less abortions and less poor people looking for free services. In some states, PP performs no abortions – do you want their funding removed also?

    And lets be clear – they do not sell organs. Under the law they are permitted to recoup costs associated with harvesting the organs – the same way a hospital is reimbursed when harvesting organs from a donor. The organization doing the harvesting is reimbursed for their costs. In none of the videos is there any proof or evidence of any group making money off of the organs. If one really wants to stop it – stop the usage of harvested organs by the science community, then there will be no need to harvest the organs. If you know anyone with HIV or Cystic Fibrosis – well, then the drugs they are using were tested using fetal tissue.

  24. blue

    @Pat.Herve

    Has anybody said anything about abolishing Title 10? No, so let’s stop with the sky is falling BS. And read the above, has anybody said anything about abolishing legal abortion ? No, so stop with the sky is falling BS. I get that you support eugenics as means to an end and less poor people looking for free services, but in contrast to many Democrats, no republican or conservative has ever said anything like that. As for selling organs – baby and aborted organs, without any donor cards I might add, as somebody said here once before, I guess I will have to not believe my eyes.

    1. If eugenics is having children when you want them and can afford them, I am in. If eugenics is better nutrition so that babies grow into healthy children who become healthy adults, absolutely.

      If you needed a kidney, heart, retina, liver, lung, would you turn it down because there is a handling fee attached? Didn’t think so.

      If you buy body parts on the black market, which is the only way to get them outside of a donor program, the cost is upwards of 10k.

  25. blue

    Moon-howler :

    If you buy body parts on the black market, which is the only way to get them outside of a donor program, the cost is upwards of 10k.

    My point exactly – thanks Moon, hence the objection to PP.

    1. They aren’t doing that any more than Johns Hopkins is selling body parts. If you get a corneal transplant, there are fees associated with handling and storage and transportation. That isn’t selling body parts. I don’t understand why you don’t understand this.

      Any organ donation has storage costs.

  26. blue

    @Moon-howler

    Are you really asking me to believe that you do not understand the difference between a legal organ donar and the legal and illegal killing of bablies by abortion and then harvasting of the fetuses for parts for sale / profit?

    1. I think you don’t know what you are talking about.

      I have discussed why certain things are done. It really shouldn’t be necessary to do it again.

      There were no illegal abortions performed. To my knowledge, no parts were sold.

      Let’s get really blunt here. If you are talking about adult or even child organ transplant, you have to wait for a donor to die. The organ is then saved and quickly transported to the recipient, who is on an organ donor list.

      Now let’s talk about any of the research done with embryonic or fetal tissue. There are abortions performed daily. There is no shortage of fetal tissue. There is also no great market for it. Why? Because abortion isn’t rare. So tell me seriously why you think there is this great demand for fetal tissue and organs? There isn’t.

      Are you one of those people who want the government shut down over fetal tissue? How freaking pathetic. Talk about a waste of money and time.

      I am so damn sick of politicians trying to get their perceived Ronnie on by fooling around with the budget as blackmail, until the government closes. I spoke to my financial advisor last week and even he referred to when the stock market mini crashed in August 2 years ago over raising the debt ceiling. My portfolio took a real beating because of these political A-Hs.

      I spoke with someone yesterday over hiring in Northern Virginia. Anyone who is dealing with the govt or military has pretty much frozen hiring. Why? Sequestration. Again. Thank you tea party oath signers. Our economy doesn’t need to be slammed.

      Its all just extortion and blackmail and I am tired of it. It doesn’t hurt me but it does hurt friends, neighbors and family.

  27. Kelly_3406

    Here is a video that seems to show a fetus moving after the 5:56 point.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FzMAycMMXp8&t=364

    1. That appeared to be a much older fetus. Kelly, I didn’t see movement but…that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. What is a procurement technician? I have a difficult time believing most of this because that just isn’t what an abortion looks like. It’s not a first trimester.

      I am very skeptical of anything done by a “undercover” group regardless of what the gotcha is. I don’t care if it is this group or PETA or whatever. They have misrepresented themselves to get where they are in the first place. They have an agenda.

      I question whether they actually filmed the event “Holly” is discussing at a Planned Parenthood. I smell a huge rat.

      Regardless, Planned Parenthood needs to stop dealing with stem cell people and leave that up to clinics that are totally private. Let the private sector deal with it. Meanwhile PP doesn’t need to be defunded.

    2. I got curious because I was unaware that labor induced abortions were still performed. A D&E procedure is usually the method used with second trimester abortions. I can’t imagine why anyone would go through a labor induced abortion just so they could deliver a whole fetus just to donate its body parts. That makes no sense to me and still doesn’t. That’s why I smell a rat.

      What’s particularly sad is that a 2nd trimester is far more expensive, far more medically involved and riskier, and a fetus has far more gestational age. Let’s face it, the closer to term the more undesirable abortion becomes.

      Why are abortions performed so late? Fetal anomaly and lack of money or availability are the only reasons I can think of. The more difficulty a woman has procuring a first trimester abortion, the greater the likelihood is that she will end up having a 2nd trimester.

      Here is info on 2nd trimester abortions.
      http://contemporaryobgyn.modernmedicine.com/contemporary-obgyn/content/tags/abortion/options-second-trimester-termination?page=full

      A

  28. For all,

    no more body parts of any age. I am not in the medical profession and I really don’t have any interest in looking.

    I want a cure for cancer and heart disease also. I just cannot be the one to find it.

    I gross out easily.

    I did run in to something I found interesting though while doing side research. I was at National Review (I think ) and saw Planned Parenthood spoken of as a place promoting sexual liberation. Is THAT why conservatives seem to hate it?

    I don’t think they promote sexual liberation or don’t promote it. They accept that sex is a normal part of the human condition and that it has consequences.

    Too many people seem to get tied up with who other people are sleeping with. I am reminded of a big brouhaha I had with my mother when we were both grown women.

    My grandmother lived in a retirement home. (not nursing or assisted living) The place was all a buzz because some old man got caught in bed with some 90 year old woman and the residents were howling to have him thrown out of the complex.

    I asked if the old lady he was bedding objected. My mother said no and that they were shunning her. I exploded. I told my mother that she and my grandmother should be ashamed of themselves. When you are 90 years old you have paid your dues and should be able to sleep with who you want to sleep with without interference from a bunch of old busy bodies.

    Oddly enough, my mother agreed and my grandmother shut up. I guess they hadn’t looked at it as a personal choice. It was far easier to use the society flogger on the couple.

  29. Kelly_3406

    A video of body parts definitely is not be appropriate for dinner-time conversation. But the point is that it counters the claim that Carly Fiorina was lying.

    1. It doesn’t to me. You have no idea where that fetus was from. The woman talking wasn’t even a planned parenthood employee.

      I just don’t believe it happened. I believe it was a set up. I have a lot of respect for Cecile Richards.

      I will just never believe that live fetuses are dissected by Planned Parenthood. Did that stealth organization have something to gain by editing film? Absolutely. Has PP been a targeted organization for the past several decades? Oh hell yes.

      Kelly, you and I will probably both walk away believing what we believed in the first place, about Planned Parenthood before all this happened. You are willing to believe an organization that lied from the git -go about who they were and what they were about. Doesn’t that make you suspicious? You know what they wanted. Don’t you think they were tempted to alter things to prove their point?

      I have dealt with PP for about 25 years. Elena did her counselling internship with one of the local ones. I have always had high regard for the organization. Will there be bad apples working there? There are bad apples everywhere, in every line of work. My husband’s nasty ex wife worked for them at some point in some non-medical capacity, thus proving my bad apple point.

    2. Kelly, the mother came forward at 2:30 today and said the picture of the fetus that Carley talks about is her stillborn. The picture was used without her permission. It might be noted that the mother is NOT pro-choice.

      The videos were doctored. I hope everyone feels betrayed because you really were.

      I knew it was a hoax but I have probably spent more time with reproductive rights and Planned Parenthood than the average bear.

  30. Kelly_3406

    I kind of like Carly. It remains to be shown that she is truly presidential material, but she is a great speaker with a good command of the facts (in most cases). I will be paying close attention to what she says over the next couple of months.

  31. @Kelly_3406

    I liked her until the hysterical outburst on Planned Parenthood, involving Hillary and Obama.

    All of a sudden, she just became ordinary and someone I could never support.

  32. Kelly_3406

    @Moon-howler

    The problem is that PP is very secretive. I have a right to know how my tax dollars are spent. Like it or not, undercover journalism has found a place in society for discovering facts that organizations would like to be withheld from the public.

    The organization making the video is clearly capable of manipulating the facts, as is PP. Separating fact from fiction is therefore very difficult. However, the exchange of body parts for money has come to light as a result of these videos. So at least some part of these videos has turned out to be credible.

    If PP thinks that supplying body parts for research is a laudable way to reduce costs, why was it kept hidden from the public? It makes one wonder what else is going on that is hidden from the public.

    The key is to follow the money and find out what is really going on. If PP wants to put this to rest, it could ask the GAO to do an audit to demonstrate that no funds are being mishandled. Or it could give the Washington Post access to multiple PP clinics to investigate how services are provided, where the money goes, the inter-relationship between abortion and non-abortion services, and the various activities used to recoup costs. There should be no problem so long as the reporter agreed not to reveal names or show faces of the patients.

    I suspect that “invited” reporting/auditing will never take place, because further revelations would come out that PP wants suppressed.

    1. All sorts of organizations get grants. That doesn’t entitle the public to view information it isn’t entitled to. The other way Planned Parenthood gets money is Medicaid reimbursement. Again, you are dealing with privacy issues, pretty much the same as why you can’t view my medical records.

      I think knowing that your tax money is being spent (all 5 cents of it in the grand scheme of things) on grants for Title X family planning and to reimburse Medicaid visits is pretty much it.

      Do you want to know what a poor family has for dinner when they have a SNAP card?

      We know that THAT particular PP has supplied fetal tissue to a lab and that storage and handling fees were receive. Are we entitled to know how much money changed hands? I will have to think on that. If the abortion department of Planned Parenthood receives no public funds, (Hyde Amendment mandates no public funds for abortion) then I am going to say no. The public funds are all for Title X services and Medicaid reimbursement.

      Those spending records should be more viewable as long as patient confidentiality is protected.

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